What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bible?

[MissBrattified]

You're presenting proof that your view is the correct one, Michael--not proof that a disagreement with your understanding of the passage means fellowship between Christians should be at risk.

I'm not arguing this view one way or the other--because I simply got sick to death of hearing ministers argue over it when I was a kid. My point is that disagreeing over when Jesus will come back shouldn't be a point of contention so severe that Christians treat one another badly. (Like in the scenario presented on this thread.)

[Praxeas]

I know a Pastor like that, but he left the UPC and went independent. While he was UPC he trash talked my church and my Pastor...the crime? My pastor voted for video and allowed wedding rings. Other than that they were both pretty conservative alike

[missourimary]

I know several pastors like that-most I know have left the UPC and gone other directions, too. Crimes from video to wedding bands to sleeve length to not believing in permanent expulsion as "discipline"... to simply being friends with the wrong person or being affiliated with the wrong group. It's very sad. Last time I checked, the NT was pretty strongly against divisions and strife... I think those things are actually warned against in the NT more often than wedding bands, sleeve length, video, or affiliation. Maybe I misread something though...

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I used to know an awful lot more about the end times and Revelation than I do now! I am personally, pre-trib but I personally don't care where anyone is on that subject. NO ONE has a corner on the "End Times" market.......not even Irvin Baxter. I find it hard to believe, #1 that a pastor would make it a matter of fellowship on that issue and #2 that a person would choose a church based on that issue. I think that is straining at a gnat. Most of us know the end time events. It is the timing of those events that unfortunately divides too many. If pre, mid, post trib is litmus test for fellowship, then I'm not sure that those are the kinds of people I want to hang out with. It will only be a matter of time before another and another issue comes up that is a litmus for fellowship.

First off MOW let me say you are a likable man and you have given some good advice from time to time here. Now you are proving what I said in the beginning. A post trib who loves the truth is not really welcome in a pre trib Church.

And you are right as important as post trib is it is not the only foundational truth. I believe truth is to be loved. The Apostle John said he had no greater joy than to hear the elect walk in truth. All the truth is very important.

Sure you and others say no one has "a corner" on the end times. But some one does have the basic knowledge of the end time. One of the views is right the others are wrong.

You have aptly said I am the kind of person you would not want to hang out with. I honor that by not wasting my time or others by trying to compromise enough to be acceptable to you all.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Its important because Paul said this:

1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess. 2:1-4

If what I believe is right I cant let someone deceive me about what Paul is saying. He says it about this particular topic. And even if I personally would decide to sit under a pre trib Pastor I would have to deal with my conscience concerning taking others to a Church that does exactly what Paul warned us about......teaching Christ could come before the man of sin.

There are a lot of ways that the "Pre-Trib" rapture is articulated that still has "the man of sin" appearing before the "tribulation."

The "tribulation" is usually understood as being the "wrath of God." Whatever misery the "man of sin" is responsible for is seen as something different than "God's wrath."

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

First off MOW let me say you are a likable man and you have given some good advice from time to time here. Now you are proving what I said in the beginning. A post trib who loves the truth is not really welcome in a pre trib Church.

And you are right as important as post trib is it is not the only foundational truth. I believe truth is to be loved. The Apostle John said he had no greater joy than to hear the elect walk in truth. All the truth is very important.

Sure you and others say no one has "a corner" on the end times. But some one does have the basic knowledge of the end time. One of the views is right the others are wrong.

You have aptly said I am the kind of person you would not want to hang out with. I honor that by not wasting my time or others by trying to compromise enough to be acceptable to you all.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I said that IF, and I included ALL Trib views, was a litmus test for fellowship, that it would only be a matter of time before other issues would be added to that list. ANYONE with ANY view of the trib is welcome at NLC and that would include you, no exceptions. My point was that particular attitude would cause problems. Not that I would have problems but that the person holding that exclusive view would have a problem.

My point was that I don't think I'd want to hang out with someone who was going to be that picky on fellowship. It would only be a matter of time before they found something that would justify breaking fellowship. I've seen it over and over and over.

You have every right to hold the viewpoint you do, and I respect that, but are you saying that if you attended a church that was in line with everything else you believe but was pre-trib, you couldn't fellowship them?
Do you think they are lost?
Do you think they are willful deceivers?
Do you think they are displeasing to God?

Post trib is ONLY ONE of the many and varied views of eschatology and there are not even a majority of evangelicals who hold that view. I know the roots of Dispensationalism and I'm not sure it's all that it's cracked up to be, but I certainly wouldn't withhold fellowship from a fellow believer simply due to a differing eschatological viewpoint.

Hey, I even respect full pre-terists! (EB) I personally think it is a bunch of bunk but I won't tear them down either for it.

[Michael The Disciple]

You have every right to hold the viewpoint you do, and I respect that, but are you saying that if you attended a church that was in line with everything else you believe but was pre-trib, you couldn't fellowship them?
Do you think they are lost?
Do you think they are willful deceivers?
Do you think they are displeasing to God?

Post trib is ONLY ONE of the many and varied views of eschatology and there are not even a majority of evangelicals who hold that view. I know the roots of Dispensationalism and I'm not sure it's all that it's cracked up to be, but I certainly wouldn't withhold fellowship from a fellow believer simply due to a differing eschatological viewpoint.

Neither do the majority believe in Oneness. Who else believes in it means little to me. In the first place tho in the early Church it was THE only view. Thats why Paul was so strong about it. We see it down through time much differently and cant even relate to what is was like then when men had confidence they were walking in truth.

To US its normal for all Church members to believe whatever they choose. It was not so in the beginning. Any variance was considered heresy.



Well first when you say if a Church was in line with all I believe except on the rapture that would certainly be a wonderful thing to have THAT much agreement. A lot depends on what fellowship means to you. I see it kind of on several levels. I might be able lets say to fellowship with them but I could not LABOR with them.

Are pre tribbers lost? I dont assume they are hey I used to be one too. But yes they are deceived on that point. Its so important because Paul says on that particular issue "Let no man deceive you by any means".

Are pre trib teachers willful deceivers? Well I dont know their hearts my sense is that some are not some are. As I said I taught that at one time. I believe the Spirit will lead into all truth.

I think all false doctrine is displeasing to God while at the same time I can say that he blesses those who are in it assuming there are his. He works in them (or us as the case may be) to get us where he wants us whether in faith or practice.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Neither do the majority believe in Oneness. Who else believes in it means little to me. In the first place tho in the early Church it was THE only view. Thats why Paul was so strong about it. We see it down through time much differently and cant even relate to what is was like then when men had confidence they were walking in truth.

To US its normal for all Church members to believe whatever they choose. It was not so in the beginning. Any variance was considered heresy.



Well first when you say if a Church was in line with all I believe except on the rapture that would certainly be a wonderful thing to have THAT much agreement. A lot depends on what fellowship means to you. I see it kind of on several levels. I might be able lets say to fellowship with them but I could not LABOR with them.

Are pre tribbers lost? I dont assume they are hey I used to be one too. But yes they are deceived on that point. Its so important because Paul says on that particular issue "Let no man deceive you by any means".

Are pre trib teachers willful deceivers? Well I dont know their hearts my sense is that some are not some are. As I said I taught that at one time. I believe the Spirit will lead into all truth.

I think all false doctrine is displeasing to God while at the same time I can say that he blesses those who are in it assuming there are his. He works in them (or us as the case may be) to get us where he wants us whether in faith or practice.

You seriously couldn't labor with a Pre-tribber?


So, a blood bought, sold out saint who holds a differing trib view is one with whom you cannot labor? Are you really serious or are you pulling my leg?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

You seriously couldn't labor with a Pre-tribber?


So, a blood bought, sold out saint who holds a differing trib view is one with whom you cannot labor? Are you really serious or are you pulling my leg?

Of course Im serious. What kind of confusion would that be? I would be teaching that Jesus will not come till after the man of sin and the mark of the beast. They would be teaching the opposite. The poor new converts! The poor saints sitting in the pew with the trumpet giving an uncertain and contradictory sound.

Lets look at it from this angle. Could you labor with a Trinitarian? If not why?

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Of course Im serious. What kind of confusion would that be? I would be teaching that Jesus will not come till after the man of sin and the mark of the beast. They would be teaching the opposite. The poor new converts! The poor saints sitting in the pew with the trumpet giving an uncertain and contradictory sound.

Lets look at it from this angle. Could you labor with a Trinitarian? If not why?

Absolutely, YES! I do and I have! And I don't have to compromise who I am or what I believe. I am simply tolerant and respectful of where they are right now. Might just be God's will that I'm in their life......and vice versa.

Also, I teach very little about the end times. In fact, I'm finishing up a 3 week series on the end times tomorrow, which is the first time I've done it since '04. I major on godly living NOW, not on what may or may not happen according to someone's end time "clock." IMO, it's majoring on the minors. The most important thing is living for Him and being ready for His coming; not being able to score an "A" in eschatology.

Actually, I don't have any confusion about the end times in the church I pastor. I try to put things into perspective and major on the Christ-like life. With Jesus in the center, the rest of the issues aren't "fought" about. Discussed? Yes. Fought over? No.