What does this statement mean for ex-Upcers?

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by CC1

I have addressed this in the past.

I have said that I believe if you take the same size PCI exUPC type church and a UPC church the UPC church will have a greater number of sold out, dedicated people in it.

That is very natural since the bar is so high to become a part of a UPC congregation. You must conform to all of the legalism, rules, restrictions, etc.

exUPC /PCI type churches have a much different approach to church and discipling people. People are accepted and are part of the church regardless of what point they are at in their walk with God. There are many opportunities for discipleship and many avail themselves of them while some others may not even for extended periods of time. Most of these churches have minimums of classes one must take before operating in a leadership role (choir, teaching,etc).

Is he "ferver" and "dedication" of a church of 1,000 UPCer's greater than that of the same size exUPC PCI type church, you bet!! Would I trade my church for that, NO!!!

Because the ends do not justify the means. I realize that my church is made up of a lot of people at a lot of different places in their journey with Christ.

It is also made up of a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. Some are more comfortable with demonstrative worship than others.

I for one don't believe that most of the demonstrative worship in old time Pentecost is neccessary or even beneficial. In my opinion most of it is tradition, emotion, etc.

I have seen as many lives truly changed at my church that some consider "dead" as I saw in old time Pentecost with all of the whoopin and hollarin going on.

You can shout your hair down and spin the helicopter till you drop and still be a devil. I have witnessed it first hand. Having a crowd scream "amen" every two seconds and waving their arms around may make the preacher feel better but I don't think that is what God is really looking for. A person can be just as serious and sincere with God without the theatrics.

Bottom line is that I would rather go to a church of 4,000 that is embracing people at all stages of a walk with Christ than a church of 1,000 sold out people bound to their religous culture through forced legalism and psychological conditioning.

Good post CC1! I agree that the level of commitment one sees in the UPC is very much influenced by their emphasis on standards which must be adhered to, and their belief that they have what the other churches don't have such as holiness, truth, anointed worship and preaching, etc. In other words they have a cause!

I also agree that there is a lot of hype involved in their worship. The need for instant gratification through constant shouting by the congregation during the preaching tends to promote theatrics and wild statements made that ignite the crowd but has little to do with sound biblical truth. This is problematic in my opinion.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Good post CC1! I agree that the level of commitment one sees in the UPC is very much influenced by their emphasis on standards which must be adhered to, and their belief that they have what the other churches don't have such as holiness, truth, anointed worship and preaching, etc. In other words they have a cause!

I also agree that there is a lot of hype involved in their worship. The need for instant gratification through constant shouting by the congregation during the preaching tends to promote theatrics and wild statements made that ignite the crowd but has little to do with sound biblical truth. This is problematic in my opinion.

TB,

Thanks for bringing out another very important aspect I failed to mention. That is what you said about the "cause" they have. It is an "us against them" mentality regarding the rest of Christendom and it causes even more fervor.

Preachers are only human and human beings desire and enjoy affirmation. That causes what you said about preachers crafting their words to promote the wild theatrics. Thus my frustation when I will hear a certain preacher praised for his great sermons yet wehn I listen I hear little of coherent content but a lot of sloagans and red meat designed to ignite an old time Oneness Pentecostal crowd.

I have to agree with you CC1 and TB. I personally do believe in Acts 2:38 but I just can't either come to agreement or understand the need for standards. I never have. Yes, I am a woman and I love going to the IPC that I attend. I have attended both UPC and IPC and I find more love and friendship in the IPC church. They take me for who I am and at what point I am at with my walk with Christ. I felt like I could never measure up the the 'standards" that were in the UPC church that I attended. I always felt like they were watching me to see just how sincere or how true I was to the standards issue and that made me uncomfortable. The women there seemed stand offish about being friends with me because I guess I had not proven myself or something to that effect. I just was not comfortable there. Of course I know others will disagree with me, but that is okay. Everyone has their own opinion so I guess you could say that I have put in my 2 cents worth.
God Bless ya'll!!!

[Pressing-On]

Thanks for all the !

For the most part I see the sincerity behind the standards. You might could miss that on some people, but I think I understand why in some cases.

It's almost like this. It kind of reminds me of many homeschoolers. Some, and I emphasis some, are defensive at the outset because they are so sick of being interrogated and criticized for what they are doing. I think, in a way, UPCer's feel this way - a little defensive.

Under all the "culture", "fervor" or "emotionalism", if you want to term it that, I see a hungry people for the things of God.

I've been around some women....... well, anyway........

And my point on that being - When the Spirit of God prevails you find a group of people more aware of their love for their creator and aware of their commitment which goes beyond the standard of dress.

If I could express it the way that I feel. I just see some people that are doing what they feel they need to do, being unhappy with some things they don't understand, but not feeling it is something they would even want to change and knowing that unless God opened some other door it would be best to stay where you are.

When God is in the house no one really cares about anything else or what people think.

I believe that wherever someone is led of God to service - then serve in that place. If He moves you - move with Him.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Thanks for all the !

For the most part I see the sincerity behind the standards. You might could miss that on some people, but I think I understand why in some cases.

It's almost like this. It kind of reminds me of many homeschoolers. Some, and I emphasis some, are defensive at the outset because they are so sick of being interrogated and criticized for what they are doing. I think, in a way, UPCer's feel this way - a little defensive.

Under all the "culture", "fervor" or "emotionalism", if you want to term it that, I see a hungry people for the things of God.
I've been around some women....... well, anyway........

And my point on that being - When the Spirit of God prevails you find a group of people more aware of their love for their creator and aware of their commitment which goes beyond the standard of dress.

If I could express it the way that I feel. I just see some people that are doing what they feel they need to do, being unhappy with some things they don't understand, but not feeling it is something they would even want to change and knowing that unless God opened some other door it would be best to stay where you are.

When God is in the house no one really cares about anything else or what people think.

I believe that wherever someone is led of God to service - then serve in that place. If He moves you - move with Him.

If a church is a substitute for "family" and fills the social needs of individuals, of course leaving for whatever reason leaves a huge void.

Our leaving, over twenty-five years ago was because all of the above left a void in our seeking and fulfilling God's calling in our lives. If you have enough services and fellowships you can feel fulfilled without much relationship with Jesus.

The number one calling for a Christian is to "know God" in a personal and intimate relationship, this requires a broad knowledge of the Word of God, and personal and continual fellowship with Him. Services and fellowship is not the same thing as what I have described above.

Then number two calling is "what has He called you to do? And doing it as an outflowing of your relationship with Him.

If you have to have constant input from preachers, in the form of Bible stories with a cute twist, you don't have relationship with Jesus. If you couldn't go to your church would you still walk with God?

I don't miss any of what we left, we still have relationship with those that were our friends for the most part. I don't mean for this to sound as bashing, the UPC was a very important part of growth, it was the path God lead us thru, He is our Lord we only desire to go where He leads.

[Brother Price]

Some leave because of carnality, wanting a more worldly church. Some want stronger standards than what they see. It really depends on what end of the spectrum you left on. Many souls are finding Independent Apostolic fellowships are better for them than UPC churches, and some go the opposite direction. It is really a matter of why a person left in the first place.

Originally Posted by Brother Price

Some leave because of carnality, wanting a more worldly church.

I left because I wanted a more richer and deeper walk and understanding of God, more so then what man or UPCI could give me.

Originally Posted by Brother Price

Some want stronger standards than what they see. It really depends on what end of the spectrum you left on. Many souls are finding Independent Apostolic fellowships are better for them than UPC churches, and some go the opposite direction. It is really a matter of why a person left in the first place.

Very true~

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by crakjak

If a church is a substitute for "family" and fills the social needs of individuals, of course leaving for whatever reason leaves a huge void.

Our leaving, over twenty-five years ago was because all of the above left a void in our seeking and fulfilling God's calling in our lives. If you have enough services and fellowships you can feel fulfilled without much relationship with Jesus.

The number one calling for a Christian is to "know God" in a personal and intimate relationship, this requires a broad knowledge of the Word of God, and personal and continual fellowship with Him. Services and fellowship is not the same thing as what I have described above.

Then number two calling is "what has He called you to do? And doing it as an outflowing of your relationship with Him.

If you have to have constant input from preachers, in the form of Bible stories with a cute twist, you don't have relationship with Jesus. If you couldn't go to your church would you still walk with God?

I don't miss any of what we left, we still have relationship with those that were our friends for the most part. I don't mean for this to sound as bashing, the UPC was a very important part of growth, it was the path God lead us thru, He is our Lord we only desire to go where He leads.

You have to do what you have to do. I understand.

I've been in some terrible church situations, but God always opened a door - He either moved the man or moved us. It's all about waiting.

[ManOfWord]

Being out of the UPC for over 10yrs, I'll give my observations once again. What do I miss from not being in the UPC? What I miss the most is the close fellowship with like-minded pastor friends.

That aside...

Good services? We have them.
Great music? We have it.
Anointed preaching? Have that too!
Awesome worship? Got it!!
Oneness teaching? Got it covered.
Gifts of the Spirit? Ditto.
Joy of the Lord? Bingo!!
Politics? Nada
Judgement? Zippo
Fear mongering? Zero!


We have folks who live over an hour away who attend NLC who used to be UPC. They attend because the oneness is very important to them, but they no longer want to get beat up with "sundry and various" extra-biblical requirements. Honestly, these are some of the most God-fearing folks among us!

All they want is to worship and serve God in freedom and liberty, not licenciousness and sin.

To some others, standards are so important that they will do almost anything to find a place where they are preached staunchly. I respect that as well. But that ain't us!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

You have to do what you have to do. I understand.

I've been in some terrible church situations, but God always opened a door - He either moved the man or moved us. It's all about waiting.

I agree, if God leads you to stay you stay, I didn't have a particular agenda to leave. Sometimes He says wait, sometimes He says go.