Luke chapter 21

[A.W. Bowman]

The next issue is the question of, "Just what is the time of the Gentiles?"

[A.W. Bowman]

I stopped counting the Google search return on the ‘time of the Gentiles’ at page # 55. There are pages upon pages of ideas, theories, opinions, and dogmatic pronouncements concerning this subject. I suspect that there is something for just about everyone.

Really, do a Google search and take your pick from every stripe of religious viewpoints that may strike your fancy.

Where do we go from here?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

The next issue is the question of, "Just what is the time of the Gentiles?"

Here's a short summary of what I have on it (I'm not a scholar though...). I think a full study on Rom 11, as well as Dan 9 thru Dan 12 (of course other prophecy scriptures too) would be helpful.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What is the blindness that is happened to Israel? I believe it is their national rejection of Jesus as the messiah as stated in Rom 11. No doubt, some individual jews believed (still believing today too) on Jesus, however, Israel as a nation rejected her God (John 1:12, Acts 2:36). From Rom 11:25, I see that as long as Israel continues as a nation to reject Jesus Christ (blindness), the fulness of the gentiles has not come in.

Considering the next scripture:
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Jews were led captive into all nations via the destruction that occured in the 1st century. However, the criteria of Rom 11:25 has not been fulfilled, so the fulness of the gentile has NOT come in. In fact, we see the Jews are still fighting today with the Arabs over the city of Jerusalem, thus showing that Jerusalem is still being trodden under by the gentiles.

Hence, Israel will continue to reject Jesus Christ and Jerusalem will continue to be trodden upon until the fullness of the gentiles. So when Israel became a nation again in the 20th century and gained back Jerusalem, it was a sign that the fullness of the gentiles was at hand. Although, they are still fighting for Jerusalem today, they have more foothold today than they had many years ago. Thus showing that as long as the gentiles hold on Jerusalem gets weaker, the fulness of the gentiles is definitely at hand.

The criteria we saw for the gentile fullness coming in was Israel receiving Jesus Christ as their Messiah. How will this happen? Israel is told in the old testament to ONLY follow their prophets (Deut 18:15, II Chronicles 20:20) who show them signs from God, for the Jews require a sign (I Cor 1:22). Therefore, God will have to send the Jews prophets who will show them signs from God, so that they may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I believe these prophets are the two witnesses of Rev 11:3 & Mal 4:4-5.
The prophets come to turn the heart of the children back to the gospel by showing them signs and wonders (Rev 11:5-6). It is only signs done by a prophet that will get the Jews to believe the gospel. We also see in Rev 7:2 that God seals the 144,00 from hurt, and we know that the seal of God is the Holy Ghost (Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13). Therefore, God gives the 144000 jews the Holy Ghost just like He promised them in Joel 2:28.

Therefore, when Israel as a nation receive the gospel message of Jesus Christ from the two witnesses of Rev 11:1-3 and they begin to experience the outpouring of the Holy Ghost like in Acts 2, then the fullness of the gentiles is fulfilled.

Just my 2 cents...

[watchman]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad
what dividing line? what gap? jerusalem is still being trodden down by gentiles

Originally Posted by Berkley

I have never met anyone that interprets it like you do. Hm.

I interpret it like Arphaxed. Jerusalem is still being trodden down by Gentiles because the time of the Gentiles is not yet over. When it is over Christ will return and rescue Jerusalem.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Since Judea does not exist now as a Roman province how can anybody flee from there now ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Since Judea does not exist now as a Roman province how can anybody flee from there now ?

Very good point!

It reminds me of this: I noticed that dispensationalists claims literal interpretation of scriptures. Israel means Israel. They cannot see Israel as the church today as a spiritual fulfillment of the Israel God foresaw and planned for since the foundation of the world. But when they interpret Ezekiel 38 and list the nations that NO LONGER EXIST, they say the same regions of people are considered. But a CHANGE OF REFERENCE OF A NATION'S NAME is intolerable in their doctrine when it comes to Israel.

Ezekiel 38:3-6 KJV And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: (4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: (5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: (6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

No such peoples as Togarmah, Meshech, Tubal, Persia and Gomer exist any more.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

The next issue is the question of, "Just what is the time of the Gentiles?"

Here is what I considered. Could it be the period when Jerusalem was trodden down, and no more?

Revelation 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (THE EXACT TIME JERUSALEM WAS BESIEGED IN THE FIRST CENTURY, 40 YEARS AFTER THE CROSS, INCLUDING THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION THAT OCCURRED THE SAME MONTH AND DAY OF THE YEAR AS THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED BY BABYLON IN THE OLD TESTAMENT)

Luke 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11 distinctly is a reference to Christ's words in Luke. What does that say about the issue? Both accounts mention Gentiles treading down Jerusalem. Revelation gives us a time period. We have all sorts of opinions as to what the "times" means, but here we see an actual time period associated with that question.

Putting the verses that speak of the situation altogether usually helps us get the full picture.

Consider that there were FOUR GENTILE POWERS foretold in Daniel (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) and Rome was the fourth and final one in the days of the early church. Could the times of the gentiles refer to the GENTILE POWERS that all seemed to attack Israel, with Rome being the fourth and last and their final blow to Israel was in the first century? There has never been a temple since. An earthquake seemed to be of supernatural origin considering that it stopped the rebuilding of a temple in the middle of the second century. Hmmm...

[watchman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Very good point!

It reminds me of this: I noticed that dispensationalists claims literal interpretation of scriptures. Israel means Israel. They cannot see Israel as the church today as a spiritual fulfillment of the Israel God foresaw and planned for since the foundation of the world. But when they interpret Ezekiel 38 and list the nations that NO LONGER EXIST, they say the same regions of people are considered. But a CHANGE OF REFERENCE OF A NATION'S NAME is intolerable in their doctrine when it comes to Israel.

Ezekiel 38:3-6 KJV And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: (4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: (5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: (6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

No such peoples as Togarmah, Meshech, Tubal, Persia and Gomer exist any more.

I am no dispensationalist. However God will indeed keep the promises He made to the nation of Israel.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Very good point!

It reminds me of this: I noticed that dispensationalists claims literal interpretation of scriptures. Israel means Israel. They cannot see Israel as the church today as a spiritual fulfillment of the Israel God foresaw and planned for since the foundation of the world. But when they interpret Ezekiel 38 and list the nations that NO LONGER EXIST, they say the same regions of people are considered. But a CHANGE OF REFERENCE OF A NATION'S NAME is intolerable in their doctrine when it comes to Israel.

Ezekiel 38:3-6 KJV And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: (4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: (5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: (6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

No such peoples as Togarmah, Meshech, Tubal, Persia and Gomer exist any more.

Isn't Persia the same as Iran?