Speaking from beyond the grave...

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by houston

what?

I am not shocked at your answers. I know a lot of people that believe that if it isn't addressed in the Bible then it isn't possible, but I believe there are things that we just will never understand...and this is one of them.

[houston]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I am not shocked at your answers. I know a lot of people that believe that if it isn't addressed in the Bible then it isn't possible, but I believe there are things that we just will never understand...and this is one of them.

Ah, I thought you were addressing my epistle to Timothy.

[houston]

I have seen many things as a child that were more like encountering a human than a demon, and as an unbeliever I have encountered devils.

IMO, the explanation of ghosts is nothing more than residual energy that people leave behind, and not the spirit of the person himself.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by houston

I have seen many things as a child that were more like encountering a human than a demon, and as an unbeliever I have encountered devils.

IMO, the explanation of ghosts is nothing more than residual energy that people leave behind, and not the spirit of the person himself.

If it is residual energy that is what the definition of a spirit is pretty much.

I have encoutered things the my mother has "done" for our family from days after her death until years after. I am not sure what I am seeing, but I believe that it is her and I don't think anyone can change my mind.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

There is no scriptural support for "reincarnation".

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

(Hebrews 9:27)

I do agree with her in that too many of us are "religious" rather than "spiritual", but calling oneself a "christian mystic" is stretching the description.

Mystic defined is: A person who practices mysticism, or a reference to a mystery, mystic studies or the occult. I am leery of anybody who would describe him/herself as a mystic.

I agree with Jay about the issues of candles, becoming angels etc. When one starts straying from what is biblical, then apostasy can set in.

I don’t buy into the candle thing at all. Nothing in the Bible on it. However, I have lit a prayer candle and said a prayer before. Something calming about it. Something that allows me to focus. But I don’t think there is any inherent “power” or unique ability in the practice. It would be more like a “custom” than a mystical practice.

As for reincarnation… I’ll play “devil’s advocate” here to stimulate discussion.

The Jews have an ancient belief called Gilgul. It is the “rolling of the soul”. This belief is that essentially God may have a divine calling or purpose on one’s life. Should they die before completing it, or should it take more than one lifetime to complete, God will “transmigrate” the soul into another life. This ancient Jewish belief stated that in the event of incomplete callings, one had only three chances. They do believe that after death there is a “judgment”. However, they believe that the outcome of this judgment may be to return.

Now, their concept of returning is interesting. They essentially believe that the returning soul “piggy backs” (if you will) another living soul and will remain in that state until the divine calling is complete. So, the memories, attitudes, and impulses of the “piggy backing” soul are often seen in the living soul they have returned with. So one might indeed have memories from a “past life”… and yes… the soul of that person resides in them. However, they are not the same soul per se. The “soul” is essentially considered the “mind” or psyche. Being born in another body with new developmental memories and identity is what causes this distinction. However, they are of the same spirit.

Also, God may send a soul back after judgment to experience a temporal torment or trial to atone for a sin. Once atoned for, the transmigrated soul may depart and enter eternity in peace.
Many of these beliefs go way back before Christ. And some believe that the Bible mentions them in passing, without elaborating on them. One example is this statement made by Christ’s disciples:

John 9:1-2
{9:1} And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was
blind from [his] birth. {9:2} And his disciples asked him,
saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he
was born blind?

Notice their line of reasoning. They want to know if the man may have sinned so… that he was born blind. Now…how can one sin prior to birth??? Why would they even ask such a question if it wasn’t a distinct possibility in their minds that the man may have sinned against God in another life prior to birth. Of course, Jesus states that he wasn’t born blind on account of any sin, but rather that the glory of God might be seen in his healing. But the issue remains… Jesus DIDN’T rebuke their line of logic, He left it open to still possibly apply to others.

Perhaps the strongest example of this seen in the Bible is regarding what God said about Elijah way back in the book of Malachi:

Malachi 4:5
{4:5} Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

This is long after Elijah’s death. However, God states, “I will send you Elijah”. God didn’t say, “I will send one like unto Elijah”. Literally, one would have to admit that God promised to actually send… Elijah himself. There is evidence that the Jews took this to mean exactly that…God would send Elijah himself, not another.

Now… fast forward at least 400 years. And we read prior to John the Baptist’s birth…

Luke 1:13-17
{1:13} But the angel said unto him, Fear not,
Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth
shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
{1:14} And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many
shall rejoice at his birth. {1:15} For he shall be great in the
sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong
drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from
his mother’s womb. {1:16} And many of the children of
Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. {1:17} And he
shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn
the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient
to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared
for the Lord.

Here the angel tells Zacharias that John will “go before him in the spirit and power of Elias”. Now, remember, in Gilgul a soul essentially “piggy backs” a new born soul. So, if this is an example of Gilgul, John isn’t just going to minister with similar anointing and style as Elijah… John will indeed minister in the very “spirit and power of Elias”, literally. That would make John the Baptist… Elijah himself reincarnated in accordance to the will of God, to accomplish his divine calling and purpose.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

Evidence that the Jews understood Malachi to be stating that Elijah would literally return can be found in the questions asked by the Pharisees and the disciples:

John 1:19-21
]{1:19} And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent
priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art
thou? {1:20} And he confessed, and denied not; but
confessed, I am not the Christ. {1:21} And they asked him,
What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou
that prophet? And he answered, No.

Notice something here. The Pharisees asked point blank, “Are you Elijah?” Now, John answers “I am not.” But remember, in Gilgul the soul piggy backs another. The conscious mind of John born of Elizabeth was not necessarily Elijah, but Elijah’s spirit was present in him. As with most cases of reincarnation, people do not consciously know of anything that causes them to think they may be reincarnated until past memories come pushing forward from the soul within. John’s answer is typical of this condition.

We also read in Matthew:

Matthew 11:12-15
{11:12} And from the days of John the
Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence,
and the violent take it by force. {11:13} For all the prophets
and the law prophesied until John. {11:14} And if ye will
receive [it,] this is Elias, which was for to come. {11:15}
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Here, Jesus states that “if ye will receive it”, that means that what Jesus is about to tell them will challenge their understanding and perhaps even their theology. Jesus continues, “THIS IS ELIAS”. Meaning that this very same John the Baptist indeed was Elijah. God literally sent Elijah back as He promised in Malachi.

Also consider the question from the disciples…

Matthew 17:10
{17:10} And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say
the scribes that Elias must first come?

Clearly the disciples understood the scribes to teach that Elijah would literally return as God promised in Malachi. Christ’s answers the question as to if Elijah had indeed literally come:

Matthew 17:11-13
{17:11} And Jesus
answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come,
and restore all things. {17:12} But I say unto you, That
Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have
done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also
the Son of man suffer of them. {17:13} Then the disciples
understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

I know that the traditional position in mainstream Christianity to denounce all forms, and any possibility, of reincarnation. However, the verse in Malachi is clear. God promised to actually send Elijah, not “one like unto Elijah”. If God didn’t literally send Elijah back in John the Baptist (as Christ revealed)… the very wording of Malachi would make God a liar. And we know that’s impossible. So… while it may be a very mysterious and even troubling teaching… we know of at least one case in which a soul was indeed reincarnated.

For me, the case appears to be so strong… I’m willing to admit that perhaps there is more going on in the spiritual realms than I really know about or understand. I’ll not say that it’s impossible for reincarnation to take place. What I will say is that IF IT DOES HAPPEN, it’s obviously a case in which God desired to send a soul back to earth for a specific reason in accordance to His own divine will. Considering Elijah and John the Baptist… I can’t tie God’s hands on this issue. However, I deny the Hindu notion that all souls are automatically reincarnated. Should there be a case of reincarnation… there is a divine calling or specific reason for it. And… I believe that it’s rare; else we’d see more examples in Scripture.


---------------------

As for men becoming angels. Jesus did say,

Matthew 22:30
{22:30} For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage,
but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Now, most believe that this is speaking of the resurrection as it relates to the final state of glorification. Others believe that the term “resurrection” can cover both the moment when the soul ascends into Heaven and the moment the soul is united with a risen and glorified body during Christ’s Second Advent. Of course, a lot of full Preterists take the term “resurrection” in the purely spiritual sense. But the point is… in Christ’s eyes we shall be “like the angels of God in heaven”.

Also, we see that when Peter was in jail and scheduled to be executed the next day, an angel released him and Peter proceeded to go to Rhoda’s house. Here’s a brief description of the encounter:

Acts 12:11-16
{12:11} And
when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a
surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered
me out of the hand of Herod, and [from] all the expectation
of the people of the Jews. {12:12} And when he had
considered [the thing,] he came to the house of Mary the
mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many
were gathered together praying. {12:13} And as Peter
knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken,
named Rhoda. {12:14} And when she knew Peter’s voice,
she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told
how Peter stood before the gate. {12:15} And they said unto
her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was
even so. Then said they, It is his angel. {12:16} But Peter
continued knocking: and when they had opened [the door,]
and saw him, they were astonished.

I know, I know, there is a lot of speculation that the term “his angel”, indicating “Peter’s angel”, supposedly means that legends have it that one’s guardian angel is somehow a look alike. But I think a more natural reading would imply that they indeed thought Peter’s deceased spirit had come. In ancient times… that would have been a terrible omen of doom.

So… I DON’T believe that it’s possible that we literally “become angels” after death. However, I do see that it is possible that we become “as the angels of God in heaven”. Now, what all that entails? Again, I’m willing to admit that I believe more is going on in the spiritual than we realize and only the spiritually discerning can know the half of it.

Here’s something I’ve noticed among myself and many others who have lost parents. There are times when we “feel” our parent’s presence. And there are times when a series of events unfolds during those moments that are so strikingly like a parent trying to assure us that they are there, that it makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. Who’s to say… what would prevent God from allowing “the angel of a person’s parent” to encourage or minister to them? There have been too many moments when I’ve had to just say to myself, “I’d almost swear that mom is in this room right now.” Who is to say that she wasn’t???

Just some free thinkin’ here guys. I’ve played a little “devil’s advocate” on the subject. Of course, if any of the above has any truth to it… it would take God to reveal it in light of our dogma and traditions on these subjects. Let me know your thoughts. God bless ya!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

If it is residual energy that is what the definition of a spirit is pretty much.

I was taught that man is comprised of body (material), soul (psyche/mind), and spirit (breath, or lifeforce). It's like hardware, software, and electricity.

Is it possible that upon death a person's body (material) is burried (or cremated)... the soul (psyche/mind) goes to either Heaven or Hell... and the spirit (lifeforce) may dissipate or perhaps even... linger?

I have encoutered things the my mother has "done" for our family from days after her death until years after. I am not sure what I am seeing, but I believe that it is her and I don't think anyone can change my mind.

Me too.

[houston]

IDK wot to say. I believe that JTB was Elijah, but I never really thought of it as reincarnation until now.

There was an old woman in the church who said that many times when she felt lonely, she would feel her deceased husbands presence in the room.

[TGBTG]

Aquila,

As per the John 9 story:

It is possible that the Jews might have had a reasoning about someone being able to sin before they were born. But we also know that the Jews did NOT know all about the workings of God.

For example, the saduccees did not believe in ressurrection, while the pharisees did. So I would say instead of trying to go with what the Jews "believed" based on their limited knowledge of God, let's stick to the bible where it says it's appointed to man to die once.

As per the Elijah scenario, I can see what you're saying. However, we have to recognize that Elijah NEVER experience death. So, considering the fact that Elijah did NOT die, then we can't really call it re-incarnation.

But in the end, this is just speculative:


Rom 11
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

[houston]

Elijah did not die?