Respect as Women

[ILG]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I think refraining from sex before marriage is the expectation in most denominations.

Yes, this is true. I wonder which denominations are more successful with that? I wonder if there is any way to know? I guess the real question is, which denominations create a respectful atmosphere towards women where their feelings and desires are respected and yet, men's are too? How much of this is based on biblical teaching and how much is cultural? Because, as we all can pretty well see, the larger culture often feigns respect towards women in saying women can have a career and get an abortion because it's "her" body etc. but in reality, women are often disrespected, having to carry the lion's share of work at home while working full time with kids and being expected to "hook-up" before marriage, disregarding her own feelings. Also, in the domestic abuse shelter where I worked for a year and a half, the women who were getting/ gotten abortions....it was usually not their own idea. Often it was pressure from the male who did not wan the responsibility, so it became "you get an abortion or you are completely responsible for this kid". And even the mothers of the women did this same pressure.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yes, this is true. I wonder which denominations are more successful with that? I wonder if there is any way to know? I guess the real question is, which denominations create a respectful atmosphere towards women where their feelings and desires are respected and yet, men's are too?

I'm not sure this is really a denominational issue. Probably more of a family/culture issue. Culture pervades our churches so much, in every denomination.

I think it is up to parents to demonstrate mutual respect towards each other, and to raise their children to know what that means. To teach our sons and daughter how to respect, and to expect to be respected.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by ILG

Because, as we all can pretty well see, the larger culture often feigns respect towards women in saying women can have a career and get an abortion because it's "her" body etc. but in reality, women are often disrespected, having to carry the lion's share of work at home while working full time with kids and being expected to "hook-up" before marriage, disregarding her own feelings. Also, in the domestic abuse shelter where I worked for a year and a half, the women who were getting/ gotten abortions....it was usually not their own idea. Often it was pressure from the male who did not wan the responsibility, so it became "you get an abortion or you are completely responsible for this kid". And even the mothers of the women did this same pressure.

There is such a breakdown in our society in all of these areas. Churches can go a long way in turning this around, for sure. If we have people who are living a committed lifestyle, and people who are willing to learn how to commit.

Older women who are willing (and qualified) to teach the younger is still a very valuable concept. Too many of the young ladies you mentioned above have never had that older, wise woman in their lives.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yes, this is true. I wonder which denominations are more successful with that? I wonder if there is any way to know? I guess the real question is, which denominations create a respectful atmosphere towards women where their feelings and desires are respected and yet, men's are too? How much of this is based on biblical teaching and how much is cultural? Because, as we all can pretty well see, the larger culture often feigns respect towards women in saying women can have a career and get an abortion because it's "her" body etc. but in reality, women are often disrespected, having to carry the lion's share of work at home while working full time with kids and being expected to "hook-up" before marriage, disregarding her own feelings. Also, in the domestic abuse shelter where I worked for a year and a half, the women who were getting/ gotten abortions....it was usually not their own idea. Often it was pressure from the male who did not wan the responsibility, so it became "you get an abortion or you are completely responsible for this kid". And even the mothers of the women did this same pressure.

I wish there had been more teaching on sex when I was younger. Not from the kids at school or even from my parents. The church talked so much about how I should dress, they never taught about how I should act or how to have respect for myself.


About 20 years ago, there were three young women who became pregnant about the same time. Two of them were SS teachers and one was the piano player. Two of them were raised in the church and remain there today. Let's just say they were the ones who got caught.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Sasha

I wish there had been more teaching on sex when I was younger. Not from the kids at school or even from my parents. The church talked so much about how I should dress, they never taught about how I should act or how to have respect for myself.

Yes. I think way too much time is spent on how to dress/look/act... etc... when young girls need to be taught exactly what young men are thinking when they look at them, and what their bodies and actions do to the thoughts of young men who are dealing with their hormones going crazy as teenagers. And on the flip side - young boys need to be taught by the older men how to deal with their raging hormones, instead of sweeping it all under the carpet and in the end, having to have forced marriages, and unexpected pregnancies.

I am not saying this would completely eradicate the problem, but education in this area would go a long way to preventing many, many heartaches.

I truly believe too... that if more fathers spent time with their daughters explaining actions of young boys... more pregnancies could be prevented, because girls would understand that a boy's reaction to them is not that of love, but of lust, and there is a HUGE difference!

[KeptByTheWord]

I've pondered my thoughts on this needful discussion, because the issue presented is one that I have struggled with as well. Equality of women, women in ministry, a woman with a career, and being a mother/homemaker are issues that most women are very familiar with. As a Christian, for a woman trying to find the place she needs to be that is best for her family, and for herself, can be tough, especially in the generation we live in now.

I grew up in OP, and never knew anything but this culture and way of life. I would say even as one other poster did, that most of the time, the OP encourages young people to marry at a young age as a way to deal with the issue of sex before marriage. I don't know that it is so much a respect for a woman, as it is trying to deal with the issue of fornication.

I do think that motherhood is an honored place within the OP ranks, certainly as Titus 2 teaching would indicate.

One of Peter Marshall's sermons, preached back in the 1940s, Keeper of the Springs, I think holds a lot of valuable input for this discussion. The full sermon can be read here.

I like his thought that we as women are "Keepers of the Springs", and I was amazed at his insight more than 60 years ago, and if things were as bad then (as he said they were), I can't imagine what he would have to say today!

[missourimary]

Of all the young people who dated in the Apostolic churches I've attended, I'd say half either had sex before they were married or were married within three months of their first serious date.
In one there was even a long standing rule for how long a couple would be kicked out if they were caught.

I think just like in most other circles, some people were respected and others were not depending on the expectations of the particular group.

[missourimary]

I agree' keptbytheword, the marriage thing wa probably more to discourage fornication than oo respect women.

I also agree that in churches I've attended there is a serious lack of teaching people to respect each other or themselves.

[votivesoul]

I'm male, 35 years old, married for six and half years, with two children, ages 3 and 1. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in Spanish, magna cum laude from UW-Whitewater.

God saved me March 9th, 2003. I was 24. I was, prior to conversion, not raised in any religious belief system at all.

My wife is 28. She received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when she was 5, and was immersed into the name of Jesus Christ two years later when she was 7, along with her mom and dad. She was raised in the Apostolic/Pentecostal faith, attending a UPCI church for most of her life. She has an Associate's Degree in Christian Ministry, magna cum laude, from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, MN, an UPCI endorsed Bible college.

We currently attend an Apostolic Pentecostal Church affiliated with the UPCI: www.rockofjesus.org.

I present all this to, as one of my sociology professors instructed, reveal my biases.

My wife and I live a very traditional, conservative life. Our church, in some ways, leans conservative, but in other ways, is much more liberal than the average UPCI affiliated assembly (it would be too long of a post to explain everything I mean by this).

Within our local assembly, there is what I consider a wide array of views on the roles of men and women. I do not think any married couple is unduly influenced in any direction, except for constant reminders to seek the Lord and let Him be the governing head and influence in the marriage.

As for me and my wife, we have successfully embraced the teachings of Scriptures, and ours is a very happy marriage. My wife looks to me for leadership, counsel, and decisions, and submits to me as her head, out of respect for God and for me. I look to my wife for help, comfort, counsel, support, and give honor to her as the weaker vessel, leading as her head out of love for God and for her.

When this is done correctly, it really works. IT REALLY WORKS!!! God knows what He is doing. My wife is my best friend, my only truly trusted adviser and compatriot. She is the go-to iron that sharpens me and keeps me intact. My wife admits that except for God, I am the chief source of her personal happiness.

I say all that to say two things:

1.) If women are, in any collective sense, ever disrespected, I look strongly at the men involved, first. A woman may be substandard in speech, action, attitude, appearance, demeanor, and etc., and so fail the grace of God in any number of ways. But so what? Men should rise above their own base natures and, in Christ, treat such a woman better than she might otherwise deserve. Such grace might just help her rise above her own base nature and seek to become more Godly, too.

The fact is, the greater onus is on men. They are chosen of God to be the leaders, the heads, the patriarchs who are to govern their families, and through their families, by extension, all of society. Such extra responsibility and accountability requires greater diligence and effort to meet or exceed God's demands on them.

This isn't to say that women are exempt from any responsibility at all. A woman ought to follow the "Golden Rule" as much as men, and do better by undeserving men than the men are doing by them.

2.) We must never neglect or forget the spiritual side of things. Eve was deceived. Adam openly rebelled. There is a difference in this. Some churches suffer Jezebel. But then again, some churches have a Balaam, too. These spiritual forces, more than just one's carnal nature, are to be blamed for much of what's wrong between the genders.

Our war is not against flesh and blood. The unloveable woman is not the real enemy. The undeserving of respect man isn't the enemy, either. So, if there's such a problem existing in a church, a culture, a society, in a marriage, chances are there is way more at stake, and much more going on than merely the flesh.

If a devil can destroy a family, the society to which that family belongs will suffer. If a devil can undermine a Christian home, the church to which the family belongs will suffer.

When Job, in his trial, was at his worst, it was when? When the devil attacked his flesh. But take a look at what happened when the devil so attacked. His wife turned on him and ordered him to renounce God and die. It wasn't just a physical attack on the man's body. It was also a spiritual attack delivered through the flesh of his flesh, the bone of his bone, i.e. his wife.

If the devil cannot openly destroy a man, he will covertly attack the woman, in order to destroy the man. Why? Because it was only when Adam openly rebelled, that sin was introduced into the world, and death through sin. Had Adam not shared in the fruit, sin and death would not have been introduced. Eve could have been saved from her actions. But once Adam fell, he, through his actions, brought sin and death upon her, and then, to their family, onward to all humans everywhere.

This proves that the men of the world are more responsible and accountable to God for how the world goes. Eve didn't introduce sin and death. Adam did. The devil wasn't interested in Eve falling. He was after Adam through Eve. And the same thing has been true ever since. The devil will pounce on and destroy any woman, Christian or otherwise, if it means he can get to the men of the world.

And, when looking at the world today, I think it's safe to say he has largely succeeded, even in the church. Men, by nature, are suicidal and self-destructive. But men want everyone to go down with them, too, including their women and the children their women give them.

So please, don't neglect or forget the spiritual side of this issue. It's way more pressing than we sometimes realize.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I'm male, 35 years old, married for six and half years, with two children, ages 3 and 1. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in Spanish, magna cum laude from UW-Whitewater.

God saved me March 9th, 2003. I was 24. I was, prior to conversion, not raised in any religious belief system at all.

My wife is 28. She received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when she was 5, and was immersed into the name of Jesus Christ two years later when she was 7, along with her mom and dad. She was raised in the Apostolic/Pentecostal faith, attending a UPCI church for most of her life. She has an Associate's Degree in Christian Ministry, magna cum laude, from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, MN, an UPCI endorsed Bible college.

We currently attend an Apostolic Pentecostal Church affiliated with the UPCI: www.rockofjesus.org.

I present all this to, as one of my sociology professors instructed, reveal my biases.

My wife and I live a very traditional, conservative life. Our church, in some ways, leans conservative, but in other ways, is much more liberal than the average UPCI affiliated assembly (it would be too long of a post to explain everything I mean by this).

Within our local assembly, there is what I consider a wide array of views on the roles of men and women. I do not think any married couple is unduly influenced in any direction, except for constant reminders to seek the Lord and let Him be the governing head and influence in the marriage.

As for me and my wife, we have successfully embraced the teachings of Scriptures, and ours is a very happy marriage. My wife looks to me for leadership, counsel, and decisions, and submits to me as her head, out of respect for God and for me. I look to my wife for help, comfort, counsel, support, and give honor to her as the weaker vessel, leading as her head out of love for God and for her.

When this is done correctly, it really works. IT REALLY WORKS!!! God knows what He is doing. My wife is my best friend, my only truly trusted adviser and compatriot. She is the go-to iron that sharpens me and keeps me intact. My wife admits that except for God, I am the chief source of her personal happiness.

I say all that to say two things:

1.) If women are, in any collective sense, ever disrespected, I look strongly at the men involved, first. A woman may be substandard in speech, action, attitude, appearance, demeanor, and etc., and so fail the grace of God in any number of ways. But so what? Men should rise above their own base natures and, in Christ, treat such a woman better than she might otherwise deserve. Such grace might just help her rise above her own base nature and seek to become more Godly, too.

The fact is, the greater onus is on men. They are chosen of God to be the leaders, the heads, the patriarchs who are to govern their families, and through their families, by extension, all of society. Such extra responsibility and accountability requires greater diligence and effort to meet or exceed God's demands on them.

This isn't to say that women are exempt from any responsibility at all. A woman ought to follow the "Golden Rule" as much as men, and do better by undeserving men than the men are doing by them.

2.) We must never neglect or forget the spiritual side of things. Eve was deceived. Adam openly rebelled. There is a difference in this. Some churches suffer Jezebel. But then again, some churches have a Balaam, too. These spiritual forces, more than just one's carnal nature, are to be blamed for much of what's wrong between the genders.

Our war is not against flesh and blood. The unloveable woman is not the real enemy. The undeserving of respect man isn't the enemy, either. So, if there's such a problem existing in a church, a culture, a society, in a marriage, chances are there is way more at stake, and much more going on than merely the flesh.

If a devil can destroy a family, the society to which that family belongs will suffer. If a devil can undermine a Christian home, the church to which the family belongs will suffer.

When Job, in his trial, was at his worst, it was when? When the devil attacked his flesh. But take a look at what happened when the devil so attacked. His wife turned on him and ordered him to renounce God and die. It wasn't just a physical attack on the man's body. It was also a spiritual attack delivered through the flesh of his flesh, the bone of his bone, i.e. his wife.

If the devil cannot openly destroy a man, he will covertly attack the woman, in order to destroy the man. Why? Because it was only when Adam openly rebelled, that sin was introduced into the world, and death through sin. Had Adam not shared in the fruit, sin and death would not have been introduced. Eve could have been saved from her actions. But once Adam fell, he, through his actions, brought sin and death upon her, and then, to their family, onward to all humans everywhere.

This proves that the men of the world are more responsible and accountable to God for how the world goes. Eve didn't introduce sin and death. Adam did. The devil wasn't interested in Eve falling. He was after Adam through Eve. And the same thing has been true ever since. The devil will pounce on and destroy any woman, Christian or otherwise, if it means he can get to the men of the world.

And, when looking at the world today, I think it's safe to say he has largely succeeded, even in the church. Men, by nature, are suicidal and self-destructive. But men want everyone to go down with them, too, including their women and the children their women give them.

So please, don't neglect or forget the spiritual side of this issue. It's way more pressing than we sometimes realize.

I thought this was a very good write up.

I would like to add that there are many phytoestrogens in the world as well, that attack people on a cellular level, that may actually feminize men to some extent.