Original Sin

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Do you believe, then, that all children who die are accursed and go to "hell"?

No, because although SIN is in a person, it is not "activated" until a moral commandment is introduced, which Paul referred to in Romans 7:7-11. And infants cannot comprehend a moral commandment.

[votivesoul]

Doesn't the doctrine of Original Sin also teach that we inherit not only a law of sin from Adam, but that we also inherit his guilt (hence infant baptism for remission of Adam's sin)?

Further, since Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), can it not be said that the penalty for the law of sin and the supposed guilt inherited from Adam has been paid in full in the ransom provided by the Lord in the atonement?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Doesn't the doctrine of Original Sin also teach that we inherit not only a law of sin from Adam, but that we also inherit his guilt (hence infant baptism for remission of Adam's sin)?
Further, since Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), can it not be said that the penalty for the law of sin and the supposed guilt inherited from Adam has been paid in full in the ransom provided by the Lord in the atonement?

That's what I was trying to elicit by my questions. I don't know if "Pentecostal" original sin
is different from the catholic doctrine. Truth is, I see many Pentecostal arguments
resemble those from the daughters of the "Mother of Harlots".

My view is that although we inherit the propensity to sin (because of our free will),
infants are not born WITH sin: that was taken care of on Calvary: where forgiveness of
sins (AKA mercy) was tendered. Although the natural mind has a tendency to interchange
mercy and grace, and forgiveness and remission, they are NOT the same.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Doesn't the doctrine of Original Sin also teach that we inherit not only a law of sin from Adam, but that we also inherit his guilt (hence infant baptism for remission of Adam's sin)?

I just notice an infant that lies and defies before the age of 2 years old. It reminds me of an inherent sin nature that I can visibly see.

Further, since Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), can it not be said that the penalty for the law of sin and the supposed guilt inherited from Adam has been paid in full in the ransom provided by the Lord in the atonement?

Yes, but sinners just keep on sinning. The way that folks can be included in the atonement is to repent of their sins.(which leads to the rest for us in our dispensation of PROMISE).

[Sean]

Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
Do you believe, then, that all children who die are accursed and go to "hell"?
or perhaps some go to "purgatory!




I like this discussion!!!
Jesus said this about children(which are born under the Law).....
Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


And Paul said this to them......Ephesians 6
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.



I believe that a 5 year old that dies in a car accident is saved by GRACE here, even though, because of immaturity, they are not born again and are still under the Law!!!

[Sean]

But when a fully mature person understands the requirement to be born again to be saved, they must act accordingly(whatever age that may be).


There are 10 year olds that are more mentally mature than some 30 year olds in some cases.

[Sean]

Sin breaks communion with God, this separation is "spiritual", thus it is a type of death.(spiritual death).

Guys, you realize we were once dead in our trespasses and sins right?...

Ephesians 2
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


This looks "spiritually" dead to me.(definitely not physically)

Prior to our conversion, we were the walking dead

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Sean

Sin breaks communion with God, this separation is "spiritual", thus it is a type of death.(spiritual death).

Guys, you realize we were once dead in our trespasses and sins right?...

Ephesians 2
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


This looks "spiritually" dead to me.(definitely not physically)

Prior to our conversion, we were the walking dead

Sean, IF sin "broke communion" between man and God, then just how is it possible for sinful man to communicate with God? No, sin does NOT sever all lines of communication with God, else man, being conceived in sin, is damned from the very moment he exits his mother' womb!

If it were true, as you've stated, that sin brings about a "break" in communion with God, then how do you explain Adam "hearing the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden" AFTER he had sinned? What hope are you leaving for the likes of you and I when we sin, and we do at times despite our best efforts otherwise, that God will hear our cry for forgiveness?

You are making our God out to be a "one sin and you're out" Judge, and that He definitely is NOT! If such were the case then He would never have robed Himself in human flesh, experienced its death so that sinful man might have the only thing He would accept as an atonement for their sin, that is, His pure blood.

What sin brought into existence in Adam's case, was to disrupt the "harmonious" relationship between himself and God which he had enjoyed up to that moment when he willfully sinned. And it is the same for you and I

Did Adam and Eve ever communicate again with God after being cast from the garden at Eden? Absolutely! Did not God communicate with Cain, who sinned by slaying his brother Abel? Yes!

Why have you completely neglected to take into consideration the definitions I've provided for "death" and "spiritual"? The words of II Samuel 14:14 advises that "death" is likened to water that is spilt on the ground: it simply CANNOT be gathered up again. Such is it with death. One experiences death, and there is no possible recovery from it! That is why God, who alone has POWER over all things, including death, was made likened unto sinful flesh, so that through death He gained victory over it for us.

By asserting, or even suggesting that Adam "died spiritually" when God imposed the judgment of death upon his fleshly body, is the very same thing as sentencing him to hell's fire! The truth is, the Bible does not tell us whether Adam was ever reconciled to God, although I suspect that he was. Nevertheless, neither you nor I, or any other is his judge, so lets not be so hasty in casting him into the devil's furnace!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Sean, IF sin "broke communion" between man and God, then just how is it possible for sinful man to communicate with God? No, sin does NOT sever all lines of communication with God, else man, being conceived in sin, is damned from the very moment he exits his mother' womb!

Lafon, as a sinner or Christian, when we choose to sin and live in sin, we dont want to be confronted by God about it. That is how communion is broken by sin.
We realize we must repent and stop sinning or the Lord will not allow us into His good graces.


If it were true, as you've stated, that sin brings about a "break" in communion with God, then how do you explain Adam "hearing the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden" AFTER he had sinned? What hope are you leaving for the likes of you and I when we sin, and we do at times despite our best efforts otherwise, that God will hear our cry for forgiveness?



The gift of repentance. 2 Tim 2:5 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;





You are making our God out to be a "one sin and you're out" Judge, and that He definitely is NOT! If such were the case then He would never have robed Himself in human flesh, experienced its death so that sinful man might have the only thing He would accept as an atonement for their sin, that is, His pure blood.

What sin brought into existence in Adam's case, was to disrupt the "harmonious" relationship between himself and God which he had enjoyed up to that moment when he willfully sinned. And it is the same for you and I

Did Adam and Eve ever communicate again with God after being cast from the garden at Eden? Absolutely! Did not God communicate with Cain, who sinned by slaying his brother Abel? Yes!

Why have you completely neglected to take into consideration the definitions I've provided for "death" and "spiritual"? The words of II Samuel 14:14 advises that "death" is likened to water that is spilt on the ground: it simply CANNOT be gathered up again. Such is it with death. One experiences death, and there is no possible recovery from it! That is why God, who alone has POWER over all things, including death, was made likened unto sinful flesh, so that through death He gained victory over it for us.

By asserting, or even suggesting that Adam "died spiritually" when God imposed the judgment of death upon his fleshly body, is the very same thing as sentencing him to hell's fire! The truth is, the Bible does not tell us whether Adam was ever reconciled to God, although I suspect that he was. Nevertheless, neither you nor I, or any other is his judge, so lets not be so hasty in casting him into the devil's furnace!

Lafon, I believe Adam was probably saved, but lost his communion with God as the Lord intended because of sin. Im sure Adam and Eve repented, which put them back in Gods' good graces. However, the walk in the garden became a thing of the past.
However, the issue at hand I was speaking of is inherent sin.(from the fall of man).
The gift of repentance is connected to grace for sinners from day 1.
If an unrepented sinner does not repent, they naturally will not want to communicate with God, because God requires repentance 1st.
This is my definition of how sin breaks communion with God.

[mfblume]

Great stuff, folks. Will respond soon. Busy with family!