Trinitarian Commentaries vs. Discourse Analysis (E

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by rdp

This is where the very hard work of unbiased text-critical work enters the scenario. It's simply labeled as scholastic integrity & humility.

Is it possible to have "unbiased text-critical work"?

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Did your research determine that the Westcott-Hort recension, the Critical Text, is superior and authentic compared to the Reformation Bible text? That the 45 verses, including the Mark Ending, the Pericope Adulterae, Acts 8:37, “father, forgive them”, the heavenly winesses, were dastardly interpolations rather than authenic scripture?

Originally Posted by rdp

[COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Georgia"]*Again, I am well familiar w. your position. But, your info. is outdated (as demonstrated by your appeal to WH above)

You are wrong. Every Critical Text today is an edition of the Westcott-Hort recension.

Originally Posted by rdp

& agenda-driven (as demonstrated by your charge of "dastardly interpolations" above).

You did not understand? If you are rejecting those verses as not scripture, how else could you view the verses?

Originally Posted by rdp

Variants are individually weighed not counted (Argumentum Ad Populum fallacy).

Straw man fallacy.

Originally Posted by rdp

I would advise you to interact w. Munster, the world-hub of text-criticism proper (http://egora.uni-muenster.de/intf/index_en.shtml).

Why? Is there some paper you think they wrote that is the Bible textual truth?

Originally Posted by rdp

There is presently a massive collation being conducted in Munster from all Greek MSS for variants, etc. based upon the Coherence Based Genealogical Method:

Every computer model starts with fed-in postulates. Which can lead to GIGO.

Originally Posted by rdp

*Some evidences support Byzantine-Western readings - others Alexandrian renderings. This is where the very hard work of unbiased text-critical work enters the scenario.

So you are waiting for a new computer-generated Bible to throw out all your current editions?

Steven

[Esaias]

Well, I'd like to know the book title as well, so that I can make an informed decision if I ever come across an opportunity to purchase it. (I usually don't buy "Christian books" unless they are at least pre-1950, preferably 19th century or earlier, modern books usually keep my interest somewhat less than Dr Seuss.)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by rdp

έν μορφη, θεοὔ ("in the form of God") is a key phrase in the entire hymn. It stands at the head of the paragraph, and one's exegesis of it has a bearing on the interpretation of the whole passage. Since its meaning has been hotly disputed, it will be necessary to review some of the main lines along which it has been interpreted. It is of particular importance to note that the author does not say that Christ was "the form of God" (μορφὴ θεου), but that he was "in the form of God" (έν μορφῇ θεου), as though the form of God was a sphere in which he existed or a garment in which he was clothed (cf. Lk. 7:25).

The precise nuance of the important word μορφη (rendered in the AV and RV as "form"), which also turns up in the contrasting phrase of v. 7, μορφὴν δοὐλου, is unclear. Is the term to be understood as pointing: (1) to the external appearance, condition, position, or form of existence of something? Or does it denote (2) something more profound, so that it is equal to or closely related to the "nature" or "essence" of something? Could, for example, μορφῆ be regarded as an equivalent of εἰκυ'oν ("image") and/or δοξα ("glory")?

Related exegetical and theological questions arise: What is the background to μορφὴ θεου? Does the expression point to the divinity of the preexistent Jesus, or to the divinity or humanity of the earthly Jesus? Further, what is the relationship of this expression to the following τὸ εἵναι ὶσα θεὦ? Is τὸ εἵναι ὶσα θεω, like μορφὴ θεου, a possession that Christ already had?

μορφῆis found infrequently in the Greek Bible: apart from the two instances here (vv. 6, 7) it turns up in the NT only at Mk. 16:12, and in the LXX on only six occasions (four of which are in the canonical OT). Although μορφῆ appears only in this context in Paul's writings, cognate forms of the root μορφ- are elsewhere used by him: μὁρφωσις ("embodiment, outward form," Rom. 2:20; 2 Tim. 3:5), μορφὁω ("shape, form," Gal. 4:19), μεταμορφὁω ("transform," Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor. 3:18), συμμορφίζω ("give the same form," Phil. 3:10), and σὐμμορφος ("having the same form," Phil. 3:21).

μορφη, which appeared in Greek literature from Homer on-wards, in all its many nuances came to represent that "which may be perceived by the senses." It could also point to the embodiment of the form since possession of the form implied participation in its nature or character. In the six LXX instances (including the four occasions within the canonical books) μορφῆ refers to the visible form or appearance of something. But the term did not refer to external appearance alone; it regularly pointed to something more substantial. Similarly, from the NT contexts where μορφῆ and its cognates appear (noted above) it is clear that the word group describes not simply external appearance or behavior but also that which inwardly corresponds (or is expected to correspond) to the outward.

*As you can see, this is not on the same par with - say - John MacArthur or Matthew Henry commentaries.

*Below is another brief quote on the same passage from Baker Academics Exegetical Commentary Series, Dr. Moises Silva, that will hopefully (?) further elucidate my attempted point:

a. The initial statement (v. 6a). Much of the debate centers on the first line, “although he existed in the form of God,” particularly the force of the word “form” (morphe'). If we stress the classical usage of this term, the technical sense of Aristotelian philosophy suggests itself: morphe', although not equivalent to ousia (being, essence), speaks of essential or characteristic attributes and thus is to be distinguished from schema (the changeable, external “fashion”). In a valuable excursus on morphe' and schema, Dr. Lightfoot (1868: 127–33) argued along these lines and remarked that even in popular usage these respective meanings could be ascertained (cf. Trench 1880: 261–67). The many references where morphe' is used of physical appearance (see the third additional note on 2:6) make it difficult to maintain Lightfoot’s precise distinction, though there is an important element of truth in his treatment, as we shall soon see.

Dr. Käsemann (1968: 59–60) emphatically rejects the classical background on the basis of parallels in the literature of the Hellenistic religions, since “the conceptual language of the hellenistic period moves within an ideological framework quite different from that. …of the classical Greek era.” According to this new language, morphe' “no longer means the individual entity as a formed whole, but a mode of being [Daseinsweise] in a specific direction, such as, for example, being in divine substance and power."

Looks to me like exegetes often drive their exegesis towards certain conclusions that are "required". In both cases it seems as if the exegetes must make their way to "morphe" indicating "divine nature" yet distinct from the Father in order to uphold a trinitarian outlook on the passage.

Compare those with JFB:

Translate, “Who subsisting (or existing, namely, originally: the Greek is not the simple substantive verb, ‘to be’) in the form of God (the divine essence is not meant: but the external self-manifesting characteristics of God, the form shining forth from His glorious essence). The divine nature had infinite BEAUTY in itself, even without any creature contemplating that beauty: that beauty was ‘the form of God’; as ‘the form of a servant’ (Phi_2:7), which is in contrasted opposition to it, takes for granted the existence of His human nature, so ‘the form of God’ takes for granted His divine nature [Bengel], Compare Joh_5:37; Joh_17:5; Col_1:15, ‘Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God’ at a time before ‘every creature,’ 2Co_4:4, esteemed (the same Greek verb as in Phi_2:3) His being on an equality with God no (act of) robbery” or self-arrogation; claiming to one’s self what does not belong to him. Ellicott, Wahl, and others have translated, “A thing to be grasped at,” which would require the Greek to be harpagma, whereas harpagmos means the act of seizing. So harpagmos means in the only other passage where it occurs, Plutarch [On the Education of Children, 120]. The same insuperable objection lies against Alford’s translation, “He regarded not as self-enrichment (that is, an opportunity for self-exaltation) His equality with God.” His argument is that the antithesis (Phi_2:7) requires it, “He used His equality with God as an opportunity, not for self-exaltation, but for self-abasement, or emptying Himself.” But the antithesis is not between His being on an equality with God, and His emptying Himself; for He never emptied Himself of the fullness of His Godhead, or His “BEING on an equality with God”; but between His being “in the FORM (that is, the outward glorious self-manifestation) of God,” and His “taking on Him the form of a servant,” whereby He in a great measure emptied Himself of His precedent “form,” or outward self-manifesting glory as God. Not “looking on His own things” (Phi_2:4), He, though existing in the form of God, He esteemed it no robbery to be on an equality with God, yet made Himself of no reputation. “Being on an equality with God, is not identical with subsisting in the form of God”; the latter expresses the external characteristics, majesty, and beauty of the Deity, which “He emptied Himself of,” to assume “the form of a servant”; the former, “HIS BEING,” or NATURE, His already existing STATE OF EQUALITY with God, both the Father and the Son having the same ESSENCE. A glimpse of Him “in the form of God,” previous to His incarnation, was given to Moses (Exo_24:10, Exo_24:11), Aaron, etc.

Obviously, JFB take a trinitarian view, but they seem to jettison the identification of "morphe" with essential being and instead prefer it to refer to "external characteristics or appearance. As the second citation above notes, the LXX uses "morphe" to refer to external appearance, not essential "essence" or "being", and it is likely the NT writers - being familiar with LXX text-types and usages - would have had their vocabulary informed by said usages.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Looks to me like exegetes often drive their exegesis towards certain conclusions that are "required". In both cases it seems as if the exegetes must make their way to "morphe" indicating "divine nature" yet distinct from the Father in order to uphold a trinitarian outlook on the passage.

Compare those with JFB:

Translate, “Who subsisting (or existing, namely, originally: the Greek is not the simple substantive verb, ‘to be’) in the form of God (the divine essence is not meant: but the external self-manifesting characteristics of God, the form shining forth from His glorious essence). The divine nature had infinite BEAUTY in itself, even without any creature contemplating that beauty: that beauty was ‘the form of God’; as ‘the form of a servant’ (Phi_2:7), which is in contrasted opposition to it, takes for granted the existence of His human nature, so ‘the form of God’ takes for granted His divine nature [Bengel], Compare Joh_5:37; Joh_17:5; Col_1:15, ‘Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God’ at a time before ‘every creature,’ 2Co_4:4, esteemed (the same Greek verb as in Phi_2:3) His being on an equality with God no (act of) robbery” or self-arrogation; claiming to one’s self what does not belong to him. Ellicott, Wahl, and others have translated, “A thing to be grasped at,” which would require the Greek to be harpagma, whereas harpagmos means the act of seizing. So harpagmos means in the only other passage where it occurs, Plutarch [On the Education of Children, 120]. The same insuperable objection lies against Alford’s translation, “He regarded not as self-enrichment (that is, an opportunity for self-exaltation) His equality with God.” His argument is that the antithesis (Phi_2:7) requires it, “He used His equality with God as an opportunity, not for self-exaltation, but for self-abasement, or emptying Himself.” But the antithesis is not between His being on an equality with God, and His emptying Himself; for He never emptied Himself of the fullness of His Godhead, or His “BEING on an equality with God”; but between His being “in the FORM (that is, the outward glorious self-manifestation) of God,” and His “taking on Him the form of a servant,” whereby He in a great measure emptied Himself of His precedent “form,” or outward self-manifesting glory as God. Not “looking on His own things” (Phi_2:4), He, though existing in the form of God, He esteemed it no robbery to be on an equality with God, yet made Himself of no reputation. “Being on an equality with God, is not identical with subsisting in the form of God”; the latter expresses the external characteristics, majesty, and beauty of the Deity, which “He emptied Himself of,” to assume “the form of a servant”; the former, “HIS BEING,” or NATURE, His already existing STATE OF EQUALITY with God, both the Father and the Son having the same ESSENCE. A glimpse of Him “in the form of God,” previous to His incarnation, was given to Moses (Exo_24:10, Exo_24:11), Aaron, etc.

Obviously, JFB take a trinitarian view, but they seem to jettison the identification of "morphe" with essential being and instead prefer it to refer to "external characteristics or appearance. As the second citation above notes, the LXX uses "morphe" to refer to external appearance, not essential "essence" or "being", and it is likely the NT writers - being familiar with LXX text-types and usages - would have had their vocabulary informed by said usages.

I do not see JFB sounding overtly Trinitarian here. If you view him as speaking of the Man, Christ Jesus, it sounds Oneness.

[Scott Pitta]

Silva is one of my favorite authors. His syntax skills and readability make for some interesting reading. I remember reading Lightfoot's commentary when I was a student. I never read Kasemann.

the two quotes rdp posted are very interesting and the sort of theological literature I prefer.

[Sean]

ex·e·gete
ˈeksəˌjēt/Submit
noun
1.
an expounder or textual interpreter, especially of scripture.
verb
1.
expound or interpret (a text, especially scripture).
"I am able to exegete the scriptures in ways that make sense"





The result....tens of thousands of unique Christian belief systems, and one particular meaning in one Bible.

So, expound on........

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sean

ex·e·gete
ˈeksəˌjēt/Submit
noun
1.
an expounder or textual interpreter, especially of scripture.
verb
1.
expound or interpret (a text, especially scripture).
"I am able to exegete the scriptures in ways that make sense"





The result....tens of thousands of unique Christian belief systems, and one particular meaning in one Bible.

So, expound on........

[Sean]

*Yes, I am well familiar w. your thoughts on the KJV & I tenaciously disagree (to put it mildly). In fact, we are currently in the process of switching from the KJV to the ESV for our public reading in the church I pastor...& the people love it. I regularly teach on the errors of KJVO (which is not the same thing as being anti-KJV).

No, it is identical.

Once you finish wrecking the KJV, then you will be wrecked by endless new modern versions that all say an average of 50,000 words different from each other because of copyright laws.

You are in no man's land now, and free from the word of God, to switch to seminary translations, which are actually.... commentary .

[Sean]

What we did in our men's group meeting is compare verses from the KJV to the completely missing or completely changed verses in the modern versions.

Jaws dropped unanimously.

Try it sometime.