Tithing, Mandate for the New Testament Church?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Timmy

So, The Revelationist is a LOSER?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Found this old post by The Revelationist - True or False questions:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...6&postcount=12

1. The Lord Jesus Christ would have tithed of His income. This one is false. The Lord Jesus Christ was a carpenter by profession and then after He became 30 years old He was a preacher and teacher. Neither of these professions was required by the Law of Moses to tithe anything.



2. Simon Peter, originally a fisherman, would have tithed of the fish that he caught. This one is false also. Fishermen were not required to tithe anything either. There were only two kinds of professions in ancient Israel that were required to tithe. Farmers and husbandmen (shepherds and cattle herders) were the only tithers in ancient Israel. They only tithed the food they produced.



3. Everyone in the Old Testament seeking to obey the Law of Moses would have tithed. It should be evident by now that this one is false also. There were many people with other professions who were not required by the Law to tithe. For instance, the apostle Paul being a tent-maker was not required to tithe. In fact, none of the Twelve apostles would have been tithers because none of them came from the required professions.



4. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek in the same way that believers tithe to the Lord Jesus Christ. This one is false also. Abraham’s tithe was very different than what the Church practices today. For instance, Abraham only tithed once. The Church tithes continually. Abraham tithed of the spoils of a war. The Church tithes of its income. Abraham had no increase because he gave the other 90% of the spoils of the war back to the original owner. The Church tithes of its increase. There is no commandment or any logic or indication in the New Testament that believers are to tithe anything to the Lord Jesus Christ. Believers are to give generously as God blesses them and whatever is in their heart according to Paul (2 Corinthians 9:7, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2).



5. The Lord Jesus Christ taught His disciples that they should tithe. False. Christ only makes three statements about tithing. None of these statements say that His disciples should tithe anything. Christ first statement, repeated in two Gospels, is spoken to the Pharisees not to His disciples. (Mattthew 23:23, Luke 11:42) In that statement, Christ says that the Pharisees should continue to tithe mint, dill and cummin. This is a tithe of food not money. He also says that this tithe of food is a part of the Law and says that it is not even an important part of the Law. His other statement is about a self-righteous Pharisee bragging that he tithes. Christ says that the other man who was not tithing who humbled himself was justified in the sight of God. The self-righteous tither was not justified in the sight of God. This is hardly an encouragement for Christ’s disciples to tithe money.



6. There are many examples of people tithing of their incomes in the Bible. False. In 4000 years of recorded biblical history there is not a single example of what the Church practices today in tithing money. There are two one-time acts of tithing recorded before the Law. Neither man, Abraham or Jacob, seems to think that they should continue this process beyond the one-time act. Neither man is tithing of their income since each is only involved in a one-time act. Abraham is tithing of the spoils of a war. Neither man seems to teach their children to tithe. All the other tithing recorded in the Bible is found in the Law of Moses. In the Law, money was never used to tithe only food. In fact, when someone wanted to use money rather than bring the produce to Jerusalem, God required a 20% penalty to be added. (Leviticus 27:30-31) In other words, God discouraged the tithing of money.



7. The New Testament teaches that we should tithe to ministers in the same way that Jews tithed to the Priests. False. The New Testament has nothing at all to say about this. This is extra-biblical logic that is not found in the New Testament. In fact, the Book of Hebrews makes it clear that believers are not of the Levitical order of priests. Believers are of a higher order, the order of Melchizedek.



8. The Bible teaches that God’s standard for giving is ten-percent. False. Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament teaches this. This is extra-biblical logic again. First of all, the food tithe in the Old Testament was not ten-percent. It was actually more like 23% annually on average. There were three tithes in the Law of Moses. The first tithe was paid only by agrarian families three times yearly at the feasts to the Priests in Jerusalem. The second tithe was saved by the agrarian families to support these trips. It was called the festival tithe. It was for a family vacation. The third tithe was given every three years to the local storehouse, so it amounted to about 3% annually. This was the poor tithe collected for those in need. This is the tithe that Malachi wrote about. None of these tithes were money. They were only food. Those who earned their livings by other occupations did not pay a tithe of anything. However, they did give offerings required by the Law some of which were in silver, gold, bronze and copper coins. Nowhere does the New Testament change this legal obligation of tithing food for some agrarian Israelites in the Law to money tithing for all Christians. This transformation of the food tithe to a money tithe is done by teaching that our harvest is our income and bringing us under a spiritualized form of the Law of Moses.



9. The righteous poor tithed in the Old Testament. False. The poor had no harvest or flocks to tithe from. They were able to glean the corners of the field of those who were more prosperous.



10. Since everyone is held to the same standard, tithing is fair to everyone. False. Tithing is incredibly unfair. Ten-percent of the income of a poor person is a great burden, while ten-percent of the income of a rich person may be no burden at all. If a person only has a $1000 a month income, then $100 of that income will affect their lifestyle and may even impact their ability to take care of their children’s basic needs and pay their bills. If a person has a $10,000 a month income then giving $1,000 per month should have little affect on their lifestyle since they should have a good amount of disposable income beyond their basic needs. If a person has a $100,000 a month income, then $10,000 a month has no appreciable affect on their lifestyle at all. Some continue to teach tithing to poor persons by arguing that if the poor person will give ten-percent of their income then God will bless them. However, coming under a spiritualized form of the Law will hinder God’s blessing in finances. The poor should simply obey the Lord as He guides them in giving.



Bonus Question. The Bible teaches that everyone should give ten-percent of their ongoing income. False. The modern practice of tithing has five basic elements expressed as everyone gives 10% of ongoing income. How do Bible facts about tithing actually fit with this teaching? Let’s compare and contrast the modern teaching of tithing with the Bible.

You deceived robbing God don't want to be blessed hurt by tithing loser!

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

You deceived robbing God don't want to be blessed hurt by tithing loser!

You forgot, it's "LOSER", all caps.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Timmy

AB, I sympathize. Everyone who believes the Bible has to decide which parts to really believe, which to explain away (if they can, or just ignore, if they can't), and what interpretations to cling to. And it can be aggravating when others don't see it your way -- that is, the way you have chosen. And it's especially aggravating when they give their side of the story in a very convincing way.

They might feel the same way about your side, if you were to try presenting it in a convincing way (if that's possible). (Like I said, I haven't seen it yet. If you have done so, it would be helpful if you would point to it for us.)

Timmy, you know I don't agree with your analysis, but if I did I would add.....

Originally Posted by Timmy

AB, I sympathize. Everyone who believes the Bible has to decide which parts to really believe, which to explain away and what interpretations to cling to. And it can be aggravating when others don't see it your way

.....especially when your way puts you at the top of the ponzi scheme.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Good grief this is a weak defence.

Please quote the post where anyone said the word tithe or tithes was not in the New Testament, I don't think I've ever seen anyone make that claim. Indeed it appears in the gospel of Matthew and Luke as well as Hebrews.
Both uses in the gospel were in reference to pharisees, though one was only a parable condeming the self righteous pharisee. So there is something to hang your hat on.

The only other references to tithing in the New Testament are in Hebrews 7, in which the subject is the priesthood of Jesus Christ, not the necessity of paying 10% of ones paycheck to the church.

Your doctrine is so weak it is laughable. You hold to tithing of money with no scriptural support for such, but rant against those who don't believe a woman should trim their hair (a doctrine which I reject BTW). But the uncut hair doctrine has as much if not more scriptural support than your tithing doctrine.

Accuser of the bretheren, false witness, and judge of the intentions of other mens hearts. Be careful AB, you have no right for this kind of rhetoric.

So is "baptism for the dead." A phrase and especially a word appearing in the Bible is hardly support for a doctrine. We must STUDY to show ourselves approved. And you as a "bishop" (I would never sit under you, not because of your tithing doctrine, but because of your obvious lack of self control, a scriptural characteristic REQUIRED of Bishops (1 tim 3:2). Also Bishops shouldn't be given to covetousness, shouldn't be lifted up with pride, not greedy for filthy lucre, and patient. Characteristics you seriously seem to lack. People googling tithing will see your picture, and your title "bishop" and read the statements you make and the rhetoric you use. You are only making yourself look bad.

I've already addressed the use of the word in the NT. Furthermore, the burden of proof is on you to show that tithing, which is not even mentioned in the Ten Commandments, is reuired in the covenant of grace, but the Sabbath is abolished. It is up to you to show how the Law continues for those under grace in direct contradiction to numberous scriptures.

The burden of proof is on you to produce a single example of anyone (beside a pharisee) tithing in the New Testament or being instructed to tithe.

The burden of proof is on you, to show what authority you have to say tithing is binding on Gentiles, when the Jerualem council of Acts 15 didn't feel necessary to address the issue.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the tithe is:
money (not agricultural products),
the store house is the local church (not a phyiscal building of the Temple)
that the windows of heaven refer to material blessings (as opposed to rain)
that the devourer is Satan (instead of insects that destroyed their crops)

That everyone must tithe regardless of their trade, even though there is ZERO biblical examples of anyone who didn't live off the land tithing. Can you provide a scriptural reference where a fisherman, carpenter or blacksmith tithed?

Just because you throw the phrase "burden of proof" around it doesn't mean anything, and it doesn't make your argument any stronger. Your argument is like a house of cards, easily blown down with a simple knowledge of scriptural context.

Oh, now thats a solid argument. I've got that one in jail ministry before.....

Show me where it says "thou shalt not smoke dope." Where does it say "thou shalt not gamble." Your argument should be grouped with other such arguments.

Really this is so simple. 2 Corinthians 9:7

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. (KJV)

If we give according to what we purpose in our heart, it is independant of the tithe. Also not of necessity specifically rules out the 10% minimum "binding" on Chrsitans.

You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And dontt give reluctantly or in response to pressure. FFor God loves a person who gives cheerfully. (NLT) How much more pressure can be put on a person than that if you don't give this your going to HELL!!!!! In the words of Atlanta Bishops in this thread "you'll slide to hell on that thin dime you robbed from God." Or some such nonsense. Look it up, I think it is page 14 or 15, I don't care enough to get the actual quote, the point is the same it is not only un-biblical, but anti-biblical. It is a message of guilt and condemnation which attempts to enslave people through the works of the law, and in contradiction to 1 Peter 1:18-19, DOES teach that people are redeemed by corruptible things, since tithing determines their relationship with God, and even brings them under the curse/judgment of God.

If you are a "bishop" the joke is on Christianity.

Bump

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Timmy, you know I don't agree with your analysis, but if I did I would add.....


.....especially when your way puts you at the top of the ponzi scheme.

[Jacob's Ladder]

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

But seriously, there's nothing wrong with giving to support your favorite church, with 10% or any other amount. Not that anyone has said otherwise, besides AB in misconstruing some folks' posts.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Timmy

But seriously, there's nothing wrong with giving to support your favorite church, with 10% or any other amount. Not that anyone has said otherwise, besides AB in misconstruing some folks' posts.

Timmy,


I find nothing wrong with giving. I donate money to the church myself.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Timmy,


I find nothing wrong with giving. I donate money to the church myself.

I know. Just sayin'.