Your tithes were already paid.

[Russ Kelly]

First, I have only debated one person face to face and that was in London on Revelation TV. That gentleman said he did not know what he was getting into and did not even post the debate on his own web site.

Second, I have many rebuttals of well-known tithe teachers. I reply to each point they make and ask them to enter dialog with me. None have taken the challenge in 15 years. I am ready and willing as long as it is public for both sides to consider. This would be a great forum.

Third, my web site also has my book in 32 chapters, It also has a 22 point essay on page one roughly equivalent to the video debate of 2 hours. The book covers every tithing text. Surely somebody can find one error in the 22 points if I am wrong.

Fourth, yes, I am Baptist. That does not mean I am lost or a cult. The plan of salvation is the fist item on my web site. As a former member of the Church of Christ, I am well aware of the common interpretation of Acts 2:38 and have written extensively on the subject. That is another forum. This one is on tithing.

Fifth, instead of attacking my biblical conclusions, I am being attacked because I am a Baptist. I thought that was against the rules in this forum.

Sixth, why don't tithe teachers teach that priest-ministers of the Old Covenant only received one percent??? Numbers 18:25-28 and Nehemiah 10:38 are clear to me.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

First, I have only debated one person face to face and that was in London on Revelation TV. That gentleman said he did not know what he was getting into and did not even post the debate on his own web site.

Second, I have many rebuttals of well-known tithe teachers. I reply to each point they make and ask them to enter dialog with me. None have taken the challenge in 15 years. I am ready and willing as long as it is public for both sides to consider. This would be a great forum.

Third, my web site also has my book in 32 chapters, It also has a 22 point essay on page one roughly equivalent to the video debate of 2 hours. The book covers every tithing text. Surely somebody can find one error in the 22 points if I am wrong.

Fourth, yes, I am Baptist. That does not mean I am lost or a cult. The plan of salvation is the fist item on my web site. As a former member of the Church of Christ, I am well aware of the common interpretation of Acts 2:38 and have written extensively on the subject. That is another forum. This one is on tithing.

Fifth, instead of attacking my biblical conclusions, I am being attacked because I am a Baptist. I thought that was against the rules in this forum.

Sixth, why don't tithe teachers teach that priest-ministers of the Old Covenant only received one percent??? Numbers 18:25-28 and Nehemiah 10:38 are clear to me.

Your teachings on tithes are solid and irrefutable.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Wow,

This guy can tell us all about how not to tithe, but can't explain the mighty God in Christ, or the essentiality of salvation through obedience of Acts 2:38.


Russell Earl Kelly (Russ Kelly) is a Baptist.


One of you brought this guy here, that is just wrong..... In a whole bunch of ways.

You are so desperate to win the argument that you would side with an Egyptian?

This just proves you can't debate or teach stubborn.

So you never study or quote anyone outside of our movement? One has to be part of the mainstream apostolic movement to be able to discuss this topic? That attitude actually shows YOUR desperation. And referring to him as an "Egyptian" was uncalled for and overflowing with arrogance.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

[COLOR="red"][B]Isaiah 28:9-13
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little:

For with stammering lips and another tongue
will he speak to this people.

To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

The Hebrew word here for rest isn't shabbat.

[votivesoul]

As I have been reading, I believe it has been Pliny making the case that the pre-Law world, and not just Abraham and Jacob, practiced tithing as an act of religious devotion.

IF this is true (as I haven't searched it out for myself) then I would offer this counter-argument:

In 1 Corinthians 10:20, Paul makes it clear that whatever Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. Tithing as an act of religious devotion, is a sacrifice.

If any pre-Law Gentiles offered a sacrificial tithe to their god or gods, then such a tithe went to a devil or devils.

Paul wrote that he doesn't want us to have any fellowship with devils.

If the doctrine of tithing for New Covenant saints is to be proven using the above line of reasoning, i.e. that pre-Law heathens tithed to their gods, then, the alleged New Testament doctrine of tithing is being associated with demonic sacrifices.

Not a route anyone should ever want to go.

[votivesoul]

When God incorporated Israel into a nation, He called for a tithe, and He instituted it to be a national flat tax in order to provide various social services to the citizens of His newly formed country of people.

God didn't need the money. But He knew that certain marginalized people within His covenant community did, along with the group of people He specifically ordered to not be given an inheritance, i.e. the Levites.

Here we are, in a New Covenant, with God Himself adopting us into His family. He is our Father; we all our brothers and sisters.

And somehow we think we have to give God money in order to remain in His good graces, as if He'd stop being our Father, and we'd stop being sons and daughters onto Him.

Is that how any family works? Is that how the heavenly family of God works?

Why does the church ever need money? It should be because certain marginalized people need it. It should not be to pay an un-Biblical mortgage on a building or parsonage for a pastor. It should not be to own much of anything.

It should be given to the poor and needy, for food and shelter, perhaps clothing, or other needs of life, and to freely support those servants of the Lord who have left all behind (family, homes, and other possessions) for the sake of the Gospel.

To think that the heavenly Father drew me by His grace and Spirit to His Son so the blood of the Lord, shed at Calvary, could remit all my sins, then demands that I add to that redemption by redeeming myself and my salvation with 10% of my gross income, is ridiculous.

I daresay, it's even an affront to His grace and the salvation He offers to us.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

Fifth, instead of attacking my biblical conclusions, I am being attacked because I am a Baptist.

that was pretty lame.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

As I have been reading, I believe it has been Pliny making the case that the pre-Law world, and not just Abraham and Jacob, practiced tithing as an act of religious devotion.

IF this is true (as I haven't searched it out for myself) then I would offer this counter-argument:

In 1 Corinthians 10:20, Paul makes it clear that whatever Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. Tithing as an act of religious devotion, is a sacrifice.

If any pre-Law Gentiles offered a sacrificial tithe to their god or gods, then such a tithe went to a devil or devils.

Paul wrote that he doesn't want us to have any fellowship with devils.

If the doctrine of tithing for New Covenant saints is to be proven using the above line of reasoning, i.e. that pre-Law heathens tithed to their gods, then, the alleged New Testament doctrine of tithing is being associated with demonic sacrifices.

Not a route anyone should ever want to go.

Good points. Even if every man , woman and child tithed who lived in the pre-Law world, that is still not proof that the New Testament saint is commanded to do so. Such silliness.

But in reality, there is no evidence that all cultures tithed and there is no biblical evidence to say that God himself "instituted" tithing pre-law. Tithe teachers are grasping at straws.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

As if less words determine truth. lol

No wonder you believe what you do.

You are the worst of the worst Mike. You have pages of commentary for a verse.


You need that much commentary to cloud the minds of your students until thye are intimidated into believing what you are saying.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

So you never study or quote anyone outside of our movement? One has to be part of the mainstream apostolic movement to be able to discuss this topic? That attitude actually shows YOUR desperation. And referring to him as an "Egyptian" was uncalled for and overflowing with arrogance.

The other problem is our ministers will not refute tithing. They have been going the other way over the years and sending non tithers straight to hell.

The only Apostolics that will refute them are us.