Love One Another and the Cross

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Because my concern is on truth. That's what I care about. And Gods' word is truth. You're not talking. How many weeks has it been now? You want my opinion and you put words in my mouth of what my opinion is, and all the while I am trying to talk WORD. But you won';t. You obviously don't want to. It's called trolling.

yes, i'm pretty much everything in the book, at this point but that is just avoiding an answer. isn't it.

[shazeep]

if i were putting words in your mouth, i would not be asking you for an answer, would i? Surely we can both admit that if someone approached us telling us we were going to hell, we would dismiss it out of hand, and likely be offended; the moreso, as more Bible "proof" was brought to bear. After all, you might use this on some newbie, but we are knowledgeable seekers! Right?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i mean the clothes necessary to attend the wedding feast, discussed earlier.

Ohh.... Matt 22! You do not clearly make your references in shorts posts like this adequately known.

If you will actually talk about this, I will deal with that.

But see how your posts are disjointed? I am not sure what points you refer to since you don't quote them, but merely tersely refer to them. Too tersely.

Here is what I believe.

Mat 22:1-12 KJV And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, (2) The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, (3) And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. (4) Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. (5) But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: (6) And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. (7) But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (8) Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. (9) Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. (10) So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. (11) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: (12) And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

First of all the context is from Matthew 21' s dealings with Jerusalem's rejection of Jesus as King, and His reaction to that.

The people that were bidden were the religious Jews, just as they were the husbandmen of the vineyard in chapter 21 and the brother who initially said he'd work in the field in the same chapter 21. It's the same principle repeated in parable after parable. It regards those called to the Kingdom who rejected Christ as King and who lost the kingdom so the last they'd expect instead receive it.

It's not about judgment day as if we go to the wedding by dying and being judged and sitting at the wedding supper. It's about a warning t those who do follow Him.

Two things Jesus referred to in these parables after the rejection of Himself as King.

1) Israel and the religious lost the kingdom.

2) The least they'd expect receive it instead. But those who received it are also warned to stay faithful lest they be judged as well.

The judgment was impending destruction of Jerusalem in their lifetimes. That's the city burned with fire

The one without a wedding garment stands for one who received the kingdom while the élite rejected it. And that one backslid later and did not hold on. He corresponds to the same warning Jesus gave to those who DID accept Him as we find here:

Mat 24:44-51 KJV Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? (46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, (51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The wedding garment stands for the Christianity that must be maintained after one receives the kingdom properly. It's like robes of righteousness GRANTED (mind you) to the bride in Rev 19.

Rev 19:8 KJV And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

That's righteousness not worked for but granted by the work of the cross.

It's the Christianity that we should be demonstrating about which I've always agreed with you, only to see you put that cart of good works before the horse of salvation without works that grants righteousness.

In other words, we get the white robes without earning them. We just need to KEEP THEM WHITE by DOING what is good. Doing good works does not earn us the robes, BUT KEEPS THEM CLEAN and retains them, which the unadorned guest failed to do.

[LifeGuide]

This is soooo good Bro. Blume.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Ohh.... Matt 22! You do not clearly make your references in shorts posts like this adequately known.

If you will actually talk about this, I will deal with that.

But see how your posts are disjointed? I am not sure what points you refer to since you don't quote them, but merely tersely refer to them. Too tersely.

Here is what I believe.

Mat 22:1-12 KJV And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, (2) The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, (3) And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. (4) Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. (5) But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: (6) And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. (7) But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (8) Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. (9) Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. (10) So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. (11) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: (12) And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

First of all the context is from Matthew 21' s dealings with Jerusalem's rejection of Jesus as King, and His reaction to that.

The people that were bidden were the religious Jews, just as they were the husbandmen of the vineyard in chapter 21 and the brother who initially said he'd work in the field in the same chapter 21. It's the same principle repeated in parable after parable. It regards those called to the Kingdom who rejected Christ as King and who lost the kingdom so the last they'd expect instead receive it.

It's not about judgment day as if we go to the wedding by dying and being judged and sitting at the wedding supper. It's about a warning t those who do follow Him.

Two things Jesus referred to in these parables after the rejection of Himself as King.

1) Israel and the religious lost the kingdom.

2) The least they'd expect receive it instead. But those who received it are also warned to stay faithful lest they be judged as well.

The judgment was impending destruction of Jerusalem in their lifetimes. That's the city burned with fire

The one without a wedding garment stands for one who received the kingdom while the élite rejected it. And that one backslid later and did not hold on. He corresponds to the same warning Jesus gave to those who DID accept Him as we find here:

Mat 24:44-51 KJV Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? (46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. (48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, (51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The wedding garment stands for the Christianity that must be maintained after one receives the kingdom properly. It's like robes of righteousness GRANTED (mind you) to the bride in Rev 19.

Rev 19:8 KJV And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

That's righteousness not worked for but granted by the work of the cross.

It's the Christianity that we should be demonstrating about which I've always agreed with you, only to see you put that cart of good works before the horse of salvation without works that grants righteousness.

In other words, we get the white robes without earning them. We just need to KEEP THEM WHITE by DOING what is good. Doing good works does not earn us the robes, BUT KEEPS THEM CLEAN and retains them, which the unadorned guest failed to do.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LifeGuide

This is soooo good Bro. Blume.

Thanks!

[shazeep]

ok i think that's fine too, if over-wrought; until you are led en masse to "Everyone else is lost," and similar reflections that are not love. Let the Spirit be your guide. Or go buy a gun

Love: The Superior Way

1If I speak human or angelic •languages
but do not have love,a
I am a sounding gongb or a clanging cymbal.
2If I have the gift of prophecyc
and understand all •mysteries
and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith
so that I can move mountainsd
but do not have love, I am nothing.
3And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor,
and if I give my body in order to boaste
but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient,f love is kind.
Love does not envy,g
is not boastful, is not conceited,h
5does not act improperly,
is not selfish,i is not provoked,j
and does not keep a record of wrongs.
6Love finds no joy in unrighteousness
but rejoices in the truth.k
7It bears all things, believes all things,
hopes all things, enduresl all things.

8Love never ends.m
But as for prophecies,
they will come to an end;
as for languages, they will cease;
as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
9For we know in part,
and we prophesy in part.
10But when the perfect comes,
the partial will come to an end.
11When I was a child,
I spoke like a child,
I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man,
I put aside childish things.
12For now we see indistinctly,n as in a mirror,o
but then face to face.p
Now I know in part,
but then I will know fully,q
as I am fully known.r
13Now these three remain:
faith, hope,s and love.
But the greatest of these is love.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok i think that's fine too, if over-wrought; until you are led en masse to "Everyone else is lost," and similar reflections that are not love. Let the Spirit be your guide. Or go buy a gun

Love: The Superior Way

1If I speak human or angelic •languages
but do not have love,a
I am a sounding gongb or a clanging cymbal.
2If I have the gift of prophecyc
and understand all •mysteries
and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith
so that I can move mountainsd
but do not have love, I am nothing.
3And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor,
and if I give my body in order to boaste
but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient,f love is kind.
Love does not envy,g
is not boastful, is not conceited,h
5does not act improperly,
is not selfish,i is not provoked,j
and does not keep a record of wrongs.
6Love finds no joy in unrighteousness
but rejoices in the truth.k
7It bears all things, believes all things,
hopes all things, enduresl all things.

8Love never ends.m
But as for prophecies,
they will come to an end;
as for languages, they will cease;
as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
9For we know in part,
and we prophesy in part.
10But when the perfect comes,
the partial will come to an end.
11When I was a child,
I spoke like a child,
I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man,
I put aside childish things.
12For now we see indistinctly,n as in a mirror,o
but then face to face.p
Now I know in part,
but then I will know fully,q
as I am fully known.r
13Now these three remain:
faith, hope,s and love.
But the greatest of these is love.

Love is God's will. But it is not unloving just because someone says a group of people who wholesalingly reject the crucifixion are lost because the bible says without the cross one is lost.

But once again you fail to discuss the issue that you raised about the garments.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Love is God's will. But it is not unloving just because someone says a group of people who wholesalingly reject the crucifixion are lost because the bible says without the cross one is lost.

But once again you fail to discuss the issue that you raised about the garments.

I'm really not interested in the cheap shots, Mike. By all means, keep to your knowledge, and hold it sacred. If you believe it is loving and showing humility to condemn others as lost, and that you have found some knowledge that makes you saved, that spiritually expresses the Cross, then be sure in your own mind. Scripture provides many indicators for hypocrisy, which is hard to see in ourselves, but quickly evident to others.

How do you determine if someone is saved or lost, again? Tell me, if you know. And since you will not admit that verbal declarations are sufficient for most OPs, i will say it. And we both know that an OP would not accept any declarations that they might be lost; yet others are supposed to take it from them. I could go on, but i think the point is sufficiently made.

And while there can be hypocrisy in knowledge, and even works, there is none in love. Love does not split into many sects, all disagreeing with each other on some irrelevant issue. As the NT teaches, over and over, in many parables--the ones OPs shy away from like hot potatoes, or give huge, intricate explanations for--love is not a product of faith; but faith must be a product of love. The very passages you mention to secure your faith in knowledge, 2 John 1, 1 Peter, on and on, testify that love is the point. "Do not be deceived, little children."

But more than that i think, 65 million Americans leaving traditional church testify to it. They didn't leave because they experienced too much love. They were seekers, who left because of hypocrisy. So i'll say again, if your knowledge leads you to love, great! But if it leads you to "the Good Samaritan is lost," or "Christ wasn't really saying that we should love one another, that is law," or "Everyone else is lost, who doesn't have the knowledge i have," or any of the other contortions you have demonstrated here, at least be warned that some self examination might be in order.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The wedding garment stands for the Christianity that must be maintained after one receives the kingdom properly.

"Many will cry 'Lord, Lord,'" who quite obviously believe that they have "received the kingdom properly." So, if one does not wish to be included in them, one must examine them to discern their failing. A self-serving answer would be that those were the Jews of Christ's day, and perhaps this doesn't apply any more either. Dunno. Let the Spirit be your guide.

But if one has to maintain it, and might lose it, but cannot gain it, then you have an oxymoron, and confusion.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

I'm really not interested in the cheap shots, Mike.

I am making no cheap shots. However, you continue to put words in my mouth.

By all means, keep to your knowledge, and hold it sacred. If you believe it is loving and showing humility to condemn others as lost, and that you have found some knowledge that makes you saved,

You are something else.

I repeat over and over again I did not judge anyone. You cannot stand that, though, and refuse to accept the fact that God made the judgment and related it in the Bible.

that spiritually expresses the Cross, then be sure in your own mind. Scripture provides many indicators for hypocrisy, which is hard to see in ourselves, but quickly evident to others.

And you're the expert, meanwhile you judge away at who is a hypocrite. You say we cannot say a group is lost when the bible clearly says it, and call it judging to do otherwise and then hypocritically say I am a hypocrite. What a living oxymoron

How do you determine if someone is saved or lost, again?

Why are you so fixated on US JUDGING if someone is saved while you are so against anyone repeating the bible's judgments on who is lost, so much so that you twist the intention and make it out as though we are judging who is lost? It's the bible doing that. Not us.

To you it's all about what WE KNOW, and who cares what God knows?

Tell me, if you know. And since you will not admit that verbal declarations are sufficient for most OPs,

More lies.

I never said MOST or any fraction of OPs who do it either way. I agreed some do. More or not> I don't know. But you will twist what I just said here.

i will say it. And we both know that an OP would not accept any declarations that they might be lost; yet others are supposed to take it from them. I could go on, but i think the point is sufficiently made.

And while there can be hypocrisy in knowledge, and even works, there is none in love. Love does not split into many sects, all disagreeing with each other on some irrelevant issue.

Love can be perverted and that's what you have done.

Love is the first thing that w em must have before we can go to the cross. That perverts the truth that God's love came to us before we could love. You have the same love talk that the world does in saying disagreement with homosexuality is lack of love. Your cross is not the one in the bible, for you claim some of those who reject Christ even died, let alone died for us, have the true cross.

As the NT teaches, over and over, in many parables--the ones OPs shy away from like hot potatoes, or give huge, intricate explanations for--love is not a product of faith; but faith must be a product of love.

That is nonsense.

Hate the cross. trample the blood. Refuse to talk scripture that deals with the blood. You are one different article. I gave you a chance to actually talk. You proved you can't without twisting things.

The very passages you mention to secure your faith in knowledge, 2 John 1, 1 Peter, on and on, testify that love is the point. "Do not be deceived, little children."

Love is a point in the chat, but it;'s not the doctrine in 2 John you think it is. No schoalr sees that.

But more than that i think, 65 million Americans leaving traditional church testify to it. They didn't leave because they experienced too much love. They were seekers, who left because of hypocrisy. So i'll say again, if your knowledge leads you to love, great! But if it leads you to "the Good Samaritan is lost," or "Christ wasn't really saying that we should love one another, that is law," or "Everyone else is lost, who doesn't have the knowledge i have," or any of the other contortions you have demonstrated here, at least be warned that some self examination might be in order.

I have explained over and over what I meant and you continue to twist it in statements like you just made. I don't know what you experienced, but boy did it ever make you a sceptic of true believers and more open to those who deny Jesus even died! WOW!

I'm done wasting time here. Talk about lack of love. Wow.