Do OPs have a grace problem?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by seekerman

In your view then, your redemption by the blood of the Lamb doesn't occur until you stand before your maker?

I believe that my redemption is a process that began in the mind of God, in accordance to His foreknowledge before time began. And He will be faithful to complete it.

I also believe in the now/not yet paradigm. You see, I am currently secure in the process of redemption, therefore I can enjoy many of it's realities right now. But the process isn't over until it's over. I could walk away or be cut off if I chose to actively reject Christ.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jay

Aquila, I do not those as being specific steps in the process, but most of them occur at redemption. I would contend that they could actually be divided into various groupings. I see at least three different sections that they could fall into, but I will discuss these a little later.

Please do bro. Please share your thoughts. I'm just sharing what I believe.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here is my understanding of redemption. For complete redemption the follwing spiritual realities must be experienced by the believer in Christ:

1. Election (God's choice of people to be saved according to foreknowledge)

2. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the law for the Elect)

3. Propitiation (Christ's work of satisfying God's wrath against the sins of the Elect)

4. The Gospel call (outer calling of the preached Word/Inner calling of the Spirit)

5. Conversion (faith, repentance and/or water baptism)

6. Justification (imparted by faith, allowing the convert to stand before God as though they had never sinned)

7. Regeneration (being born again, due to justification they receive the Holy Ghost)

8. Adoption (results in becoming a member of God's family through receiving the Spirit and taking on the name in baptism)

9. Sanctification (right conduct in life, Christlikeness)

10. Perseverance (remaining a Christian in spite of failures, trials, and discouragement)

11. Death (going to be with the Lord, sweet victory)

12. Glorification (receiving a resurrection body in sinless perfection)

Any thoughts???

Good post, Aquila.

My only thought is that "believing" (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9) is a necessary start, but obedience (Romans 6:17-18) is also paramount.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Good post, Aquila.

My only thought is that "believing" (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9) is a necessary start, but obedience (Romans 6:17-18) is also paramount.

Agreed. If you review my list, I have the following as point number 5:

5. Conversion (faith, repentance and/or water baptism)

When one comes to true saving faith, they will obey by repenting of sin and being water baptized. This act directly unlocks the spiritual reality of justification. Once "justified" by saving faith, a person stands "sinless" before God. This sinlessness allows the new believer to receive the Holy Ghost, it doesn't bring salvation. Upon receiving the Holy Ghost the believer's spirit experiences the reality of regeneration (born of Spirit). Regeneration coupled with having taken on the name in baptism unlocks the reality of adoption (born of water and Spirit). Once one is "born again", the saint is to begin the process of "sanctification". Sanctification is the journey, or growth into "Christlikeness" through submission of the will, renewing of the mind, and the disciplining of the body. Death brings the process to an end and then the believer awaits glorification. Glorification is the resurrected state in sinless perfection.

It all overlaps and is interconnected. Without a single one of these spiritual realities... a believer cannot truly experience the others. Thus, this is the WHOLE of salvation, the process of redemption.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Agreed. If you review my list, I have the following as point number 5:

5. Conversion (faith, repentance and/or water baptism)

When one comes to true saving faith, they will obey by repenting of sin and being water baptized. This act directly unlocks the spiritual reality of justification. Once "justified" by saving faith, a person stands "sinless" before God. This sinlessness allows the new believer to receive the Holy Ghost, it doesn't bring salvation. Upon receiving the Holy Ghost the believer's spirit experiences the reality of regeneration. Regeneration coupled with having taken on the name in baptism unlocks the reality of adoption. Once a child of God, the saint is to begin the process of "sanctification". Sanctification is the journey of growth into "Christlikeness" through submission of the will, renewing of the mind, and disciplining the body. Death brings the process to an end and then the believer awaits glorification. Glorification is the resurrected state in sinless perfection.

It all overlaps and is interconnected. Without a single one of these spiritual realities... a believer cannot truly experience the others.

Exactly, it all overlaps and is interconnected! Good points!

[Praxeas]

Redemption is something Christ did

Redemption by Christ is something we receive by faith

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

[Michael The Disciple]

Redemption will not be complete until THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph. 4:30

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Redemption will not be complete until THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph. 4:30

Exactly. He purchased us at the cross. When we yielded to the one who purchased us, he marked us with his personal seal, the Holy Ghost. Later, he will come to personally gather those he finds with that seal of the Spirit. Paul was using an analogy of his day of the seal of the buyer that would be placed on purchased goods.Later, the buyer would come personally or send stewards to gather the goods he had purchased. They would retrieve anything with the owner's seal on it. The seal meant "paid in full". Glory to God!! Even Paul followed the example of Jesus using illustrations of his day.

[Michael The Disciple]

Same thing here:

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom. 8:22-23

We are still waiting for both the adoption and redemption. We are tasting of it by faith at present. In fact everything we are experiencing right now is by faith.

It all becomes reality at the resurrection day.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Same thing here:

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom. 8:22-23

We are still waiting for both the adoption and redemption. We are tasting of it by faith at present. In fact everything we are experiencing right now is by faith.

It all becomes reality at the resurrection day.

I would agree. Which is why many IMO you "saved" very wrongly. It is not just a point of time in which you are in covenant and abiding in Christ but the reality in the end when we truly are redeemed and judged faithful.