Do OPs have a grace problem?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Exactly. He purchased us at the cross. When we yielded to the one who purchased us, he marked us with his personal seal, the Holy Ghost. Later, he will come to personally gather those he finds with that seal of the Spirit. Paul was using an analogy of his day of the seal of the buyer that would be placed on purchased goods.Later, the buyer would come personally or send stewards to gather the goods he had purchased. They would retrieve anything with the owner's seal on it. The seal meant "paid in full". Glory to God!! Even Paul followed the example of Jesus using illustrations of his day.

That seal however is only realized if one is following and waking. It is a seal of approval of condition of relationship IMO.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Redemption will not be complete until THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph. 4:30

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

That seal however is only realized if one is following and waking. It is a seal of approval of condition of relationship IMO.

I'd have to slightly disagree. The seal is the Holy Ghost, the agent of the new birth. In Ephesians 1, Paul is equating that seal to salvation. God's Spirit comes to inhabit us, bestowing God's own sanctifying nature, based on the the fact that we've believed the gospel, NOT because we somehow "measured up" conditionally. Look at Paul's wording....

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

God granting his favor on them was based solely on one thing, that fact that they accepted the gospel. This would have included the fact that they could not be justified by the Law, but that they must submit to the Lordship of Christ and his atoning work in order to be declared just in God's eyes. In Acts 19 we see that the story of these very Ephesians doing that by submitting to re-baptism in Jesus' name.

As a result of this dependence and trust in Christ alone, God gave them the promised gift of the Holy Ghost, regenerating their hearts by the blood of the Lamb....

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (NIV)

The NLT says it this way.....

And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

Sorry if I seem to be nit picking your words. I do agree that the seal of the Spirit is an approval of condition of relationship. But we have that approval based solely on the work of the cross. Certainly we must continue to daily yield to that saving grace. If we do, that grace will keep us.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I'd have to slightly disagree. The seal is the Holy Ghost, the agent of the new birth. In Ephesians 1, Paul is equating that seal to salvation. God's Spirit comes to inhabit us, bestowing God's own sanctifying nature, based on the the fact that we've believed the gospel, NOT because we somehow "measured up" conditionally. Look at Paul's wording....

I understand your point but disagree also... well maybe. The call of the gospel is not simply some wording of mental assent that we acknoweledge as true. It is the reality of something we do in total. It is something we measure up to. You cannot have loss of something unless there is a measure. To have "believed" is to have endured and completed. Why everyone makes the gospel less than following him which is a measure I have no idea. In following him we fulfill the law. The New Covenant is about medium of reality in which we realize God, not a change in justice. We are conformed to his image which is RIGHTEOUS. It is not imputed positional righteousn devoid of the judging of the heart but of the actuality of God judging the heart to receive his blessing. God sees you as warm or lukewarm or cold. That is a measure of acceptance. He will spew you if lukewarm which is a internal to external reality.

God granting his favor on them was based solely on one thing, that fact that they accepted the gospel.

Define "gospel" Gospel is simply not agreement of the actual happening of the D,B,R. The gospel is about following him because of our condition and his D,B,R to be born again and in the end receive IF we are faithful.

This would have included the fact that they could not be justified by the Law, but that they must submit to the Lordship of Christ and his atoning work in order to be declared just in God's eyes.

In part I agree the law in itself as a covenant did not give life in the SENSE of eternal justification to redeem us from our sin. The atoning death brought a end to a covenant him being the husbandman who dies. Law is simply covenant. Jesus is the perfected reality. Not of stone but a heart of flesh manifested to us. Jesus is the Law revealed perfectly.

In Acts 19 we see that the story of these very Ephesians doing that by submitting to re-baptism in Jesus' name.

As a result of this dependence and trust in Christ alone, God gave them the promised gift of the Holy Ghost, regenerating their hearts by the blood of the Lamb....



The NLT says it this way.....



Sorry if I seem to be nit picking your words. I do agree that the seal of the Spirit is an approval of condition of relationship. But we have that approval based solely on the work of the cross. Certainly we must continue to daily yield to that saving grace. If we do, that grace will keep us.

I understand but the work of cross is only affective toward the reality and principle of Middah Keneged Middah which is measure for measure. You walk and you are cleansed. Wecan only be saved by a trust in his Word to follow. His work on the cross cleanses but it is of noneffect unless we submit which is repentance of self to his image which is our daily bread.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Nobody is saved until they receive it by faith...but that is all beside the point and off topic

I agree.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here is my understanding of redemption. For complete redemption the follwing spiritual realities must be experienced by the believer in Christ:

1. Election (God's choice of people to be saved according to foreknowledge)

2. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the law for the Elect)

3. Propitiation (Christ's work of satisfying God's wrath against the sins of the Elect)

4. The Gospel call (outer calling of the preached Word/Inner calling of the Spirit)

5. Conversion (faith, repentance and/or water baptism)

6. Justification (imparted by faith, allowing the convert to stand before God as though they had never sinned)

7. Regeneration (being born again, due to justification they receive the Holy Ghost)

8. Adoption (results in becoming a member of God's family through receiving the Spirit and taking on the name in baptism)

9. Sanctification (right conduct in life, Christlikeness)

10. Perseverance (remaining a Christian in spite of failures, trials, and discouragement)

11. Death (going to be with the Lord, sweet victory)

12. Glorification (receiving a resurrection body in sinless perfection)

Any thoughts???

I believe God desires "relationship", those that call on the name of the Lord are saved and are being saved, everyday. Saved from what? Fear primarily.

Your list while while substantive to our lives, places ones focus on what one does, rather than on Christ. Those that call on the name of the Lord, in relationship are saved, and are being saved everyday and every moment of our lives, out of all of life's adversity, by continuing to call on the Lord.

The greatest evidence of faith in God, is that I call on him, shows that I believe He is who he says He is, and that He is present. I'm a believer in, and follower of Jesus, that's why I both publicly and privately call on the name of the Lord! I am saved and I am being saved...."I said that didn't I...." WE DON'T EMBRACE ENOUGH WHAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED, AND WHAT HE FINISHED, WE STILL ARE TRYING TO HELP HIM FINISH SAVING THE WORLD.

[Originalist]

[QUOTE=LUKE2447;1242088]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I'd have to slightly disagree. The seal is the Holy Ghost, the agent of the new birth. In Ephesians 1, Paul is equating that seal to salvation. God's Spirit comes to inhabit us, bestowing God's own sanctifying nature, based on the the fact that we've believed the gospel, NOT because we somehow "measured up" conditionally. Look at Paul's wording....


I understand your point but disagree also... well maybe. The call of the gospel is not simply some wording of mental assent that we acknoweledge as true. It is the reality of something we do in total. It is something we measure up to. You cannot have loss of something unless there is a measure. To have "believed" is to have endured and completed. Why everyone makes the gospel less than following him which is a measure I have no idea. In following him we fulfill the law. The New Covenant is about medium of reality in which we realize God, not a change in justice. We are conformed to his image which is RIGHTEOUS. It is not imputed positional righteousn devoid of the judging of the heart but of the actuality of God judging the heart to receive his blessing. God sees you as warm or lukewarm or cold. That is a measure of acceptance. He will spew you if lukewarm which is a internal to external reality.


Define "gospel" Gospel is simply not agreement of the actual happening of the D,B,R. The gospel is about following him because of our condition and his D,B,R to be born again and in the end receive IF we are faithful.




In part I agree the law in itself as a covenant did not give life in the SENSE of eternal justification to redeem us from our sin. The atoning death brought a end to a covenant him being the husbandman who dies. Law is simply covenant. Jesus is the perfected reality. Not of stone but a heart of flesh manifested to us. Jesus is the Law revealed perfectly.


I understand but the work of cross is only affective toward the reality and principle of Middah Keneged Middah which is measure for measure. You walk and you are cleansed. We can only be saved by a trust in his Word to follow. His work on the cross cleanses but it is of noneffect unless we submit which is repentance of self to his image which is our daily bread.

I think we are basically saying the same thing. I guess I'm stressing that it is continued submission to grace that keeps us. We can't do things in our own flesh to merit favor from God. It's letting his grace that saved us also teach us to deny ungodly and worldly lusts and to live soberly. Either way, grace and not works gets the credit. I hope that makes sense.

[LUKE2447]

[QUOTE=Originalist;1242098]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I think we are basically saying the same thing. I guess I'm stressing that it is continued submission to grace that keeps us. We can't do things in our own flesh to merit favor from God. It's letting his grace that saved us also teach us to deny ungodly and worldly lusts and to live soberly. Either way, grace and not works gets the credit. I hope that makes sense.

yeah... I would say this. Salvation is monergistic. He is the source and it is only by him and his provision. however it is only realized synergistically through the favor of God to those who place complete trust in him. That trust has context which is law unto us. I tend to not use grace as it is such a widely abused term.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I believe God desires "relationship", those that call on the name of the Lord are saved and are being saved, everyday. Saved from what? Fear primarily.

Your list while while substantive to our lives, places ones focus on what one does, rather than on Christ. Those that call on the name of the Lord, in relationship are saved, and are being saved everyday and every moment of our lives, out of all of life's adversity, by continuing to call on the Lord.

The greatest evidence of faith in God, is that I call on him, shows that I believe He is who he says He is, and that He is present. I'm a believer in, and follower of Jesus, that's why I both publicly and privately call on the name of the Lord! I am saved and I am being saved...."I said that didn't I...." WE DON'T EMBRACE ENOUGH WHAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED, AND WHAT HE FINISHED, WE STILL ARE TRYING TO HELP HIM FINISH SAVING THE WORLD.

What I presented are just doctrinal points. Each is predicated upon Christ's work. I look at it like this, if one isn't converted (saving faith, repentance, baptism), they cannot be justified. If one isn't justified, they can't receive regeneration through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. If they cannot receive regeneration they cannot lay claim to being an adopted child of God. If they cannot lay claim to being adopted, they cannot move into sanctification and be conformed into the image of Jesus. If they cannot be sanctified, they will not persevere in the faith. If they cannot persever they cannot have victory in death or be glorified.

These realities are interconnected and absolutely necessary.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What I presented are just doctrinal points. Each is predicated upon Christ's work. I look at it like this, if one isn't converted (saving faith, repentance, baptism), they cannot be justified. If one isn't justified, they can't receive regeneration through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. If they cannot receive regeneration they cannot lay claim to being an adopted child of God. If they cannot lay claim to being adopted, they cannot move into sanctification and be conformed into the image of Jesus. If they cannot be sanctified, they will not persevere in the faith. If they cannot persever they cannot have victory in death or be glorified.

These realities are interconnected and absolutely necessary.