Are you talking about unbelievers? If so - it is their lack of faith that is the root cause.
Or are you speaking of those who who have been converted calling on the name of the Lord Jesus (even at baptism) yet the minister's invocation does not match ours?
Brother Hoover, at the end of the day anyone who has not obeyed the command of scripture to be baptized in the name of Jesus, has not been obedient to scripture.
I do not know how one can be saved and be disobedient to scripture.
I will however, leave room for God to do what ever he wants to. Just dont ask me to condone some act (or lack thereof) that leaves one unbaptized in Jesus name.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Brother Hoover, at the end of the day anyone who has not obeyed the command of scripture to be baptized in the name of Jesus, has not been obedient to scripture.
I do not know how one can be saved and be disobedient to scripture.
I will however, leave room for God to do what ever he wants to. Just dont ask me to condone some act (or lack thereof) that leaves one unbaptized in Jesus name.
No doubt it is God that will judge - and that is a good thing.
The question that has never been answered to my satisfaction, is; What qualifies as being "unbaptized in Jesus name"?
All partisanship aside, if someone is praying to, and thanking Jesus at the time of their baptism, I would never venture to say they were NOT baptised in Jesus name - irregardless what a third party did not say.
Indeed, I feel I would place my own salvation in jeapordy if I wrongly judge fellow brethren unto damnation. That is not to say we shouldn't argue particulars and what it is that constitutes Apostolic fashion, either.
I know you may disagree Ferd... Bless you in any case!
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
No doubt it is God that will judge - and that is a good thing.
The question that has never been answered to my satisfaction, is; What qualifies as being "unbaptized in Jesus name"?
All partisanship aside, if someone is praying to, and thanking Jesus at the time of their baptism, I would never venture to say they were NOT baptised in Jesus name - irregardless what a third party did not say.
Indeed, I feel I would place my own salvation in jeapordy if I wrongly judge fellow brethren unto damnation. That is not to say we shouldn't argue particulars and what it is that constitutes Apostolic fashion, either.
I know you may disagree Ferd... Bless you in any case!
Honestly I have moved to some degree beynd arguing particulars in some areas. Exactly when "the blood is applied" is one of them
What I have come to realize is that far too often (and I am not saying this about you) we have a huge number that are just looking for an excuse to no follow the scripture. I am not giving them a pass. Not ever. To me that would put my salvation in jepordy.
I am perfectly comfortable letting God be God, but I do know that God has given us all his word and his word has a simple command. That command is to be baptized in his name. I am not willing to complicate it, use some symantical argument to allow for the trinitarinan formula to satisfy it, or to suggest that anyone is ok who simply has decided that since it is just and outward sign, and they arent comfortable with that, that they get a pass because it isnt a salvation issue.
Im not going there. I remain skeptical that any person can be both saved and disobedient to scripture.
Scripture commands baptism in Jesus Name. period. How does anyone find room to continue the discussion beyond that point?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
It's the blood that remits sin...the blood of Jesus which He already shed, but unless you are Carlton Pearson or Crackjac or whatever, you don't believe that means everyone is forgiven already. Rather there is a place and time when the blood is applied.
Some have argued it is at the moment of faith, before there is even a decision to repent. Others by faith AT repentance. And clearly we have some by faith AT baptism.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
After walking around this puppy for years, I have come to the conclusion that the question
“Do you think baptism remits sin?” is a boondoggle.
It is the (snicker) line that gets to the next epithet: CATHOLIC! (yuck)
What no one stepper can ever get around is the fact that the bible commands baptism in Jesus Name.
The bible doesn’t say it is a good idea. It doesn’t make a kind suggestion.
Nowhere does the bible say baptism is helpful for other Christians to recognize a fellow believer.
It is commanded… repeatedly.
So at the end of the day, you can argue the semantics of when remission happens. You and argue if the word “for” (eis) means for the purpose of; or because of until you are blue in the face but what you cannot do is fine some way to launch yourself thru enough burning hoops to convince me that one can remain disobedient to scripture and remain saved at the same time.
If you ain’t baptized in Jesus name, I don’t care what you think, you have not submitted yourself to the command of scripture.
Is one washed in Baptism? Well we have a whole cloud of witnesses from Noah and his family to the Israelites in the Red Sea to Peter on the Day of Pentecost that seem to point in a direction.
But if you want to be baptized to show the world what God already did for you when you repented, good for you, at least you are being obedient to scripture. Just don’t tell me the guy that refuses is a good brother of mine who is “living the life”
I also believe the fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom. And I understand why some cannot grasp the simple wisdom of scripture.
It is commanded, but is it commanded as a condition for salvation or a commandment as an act of faith? Does baptism remit sin or does the act of faith in the Cross remit sins?
Col 2:11 in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ.
verse 12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God.
Verse 13: and you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses.
Verse 14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that were against you, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way nailing it to the cross.
Verse 14 depicts Christ on the Cross and blotting out your sins by the nailing of that which was against you to the cross.
Christ blotted out and nailed your sins and tresspasses to the Cross.
The burial is a ceremony to show that one is dead.
It is the belief in the Cross of Calvary that blots out your sins.
Once your body is dead on the Cross and you sins are blotted out, then you are to be buried with him in Baptism.
AQP are you seeing it diffrently now that you are studing it for yourself. I sat down one wensday evening kids and wife were at church opened up the bible to acts and read all the way though by myself and the next night I read romans and started questioning somethings myself..
AQP are you seeing it diffrently now that you are studing it for yourself. I sat down one wensday evening kids and wife were at church opened up the bible to acts and read all the way though by myself and the next night I read romans and started questioning somethings myself..
Well, it has certainly given me much to think about!
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Does this mean that your sins are not washed away, gone, remitted.... until baptism? If not, what does it mean?
1 Steppers believe that the washing away of the sins comes through the agent of CALLING upon the Name of the Lord and that this calling was done at Baptism by the early church. So the calling upon the Name of Jesus is actually what washes the sins and not the water as the brother mentioned about 1 Peter 3:21.
In other words a person who wanted to be saved would stand in the water, call upon Jesus to save them from their sins in repentance and then be baptized in Jesus' Name. The water had no regenerating effect. This is how Romans 10:9-10 was performed.
As far as wondering if sins are remitted by Baptism, look at this verse in Acts:
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
The same exact phrase as Acts 2:38 (remission of sins) but promised at belief. Peter later claims in Acts 11 that he was sure that God had accepted the Gentiles because of the Holy Ghost. Of course they were baptized immediately but apparently not to obtain salvation but because of salvation.
All this in light of 1 step theology
__________________
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Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
God has shown me great mercy. If I err in judgement, pray I would err in mercy toward those in the body of Christ with whom I disagree, and perhaps cannot even fellowship with.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Does this mean that your sins are not washed away, gone, remitted.... until baptism? If not, what does it mean?
If it does mean that your sins are washed away, gone, remitted, whether by faith or by baptism - is the blood washed, water washed believer saved or lost?
One of the fundamental flaws of the "water and Spirit" teaching is that it consigns both water baptized and Spirit baptized people to damnation.
Repented and Water Baptized = Lost
They've called on Jesus name, but have no more hope than Bro. Epley's kissing boys.
Repented and Spirit Baptized = Lost
They have the Spirit of life in them, but the sentence of death on them.
__________________
". . . as I suspect was true for those teaching Scriptures, I found that my students often felt they knew the Constitution without having really read it. They were accustomed to picking out phrases that they'd heard and using them to bolster their immediate arguments, or ignoring passages that seemed to contradict their views." Barack Obama in "The Audacity of Hope"
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