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  #31  
Old 05-17-2011, 02:35 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

So are you all saying Keith no longer accepts that Acts 2:38 message is the fulfillment of the new birth? It was not long ago he was rejoicing in the teaching of David Pawson and his book "The Normal Christian Birth". He teaches similar to Oneness Pentecostals about it.

As far as the man made standards of the UPC I certainly can understand rejecting them. I personally left the mainline Apostolic Churches in the early 80's because of the extra biblical teachings. That does not mean we should forsake the truth of the new birth.
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  #32  
Old 05-17-2011, 03:11 PM
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

For the record, the UPCI officially teaches we are justified by faith
http://www.newlifeupc.org/wp-content..._newbirth.html

Justification by Faith

To be justified means to be counted or declared righteous by God. The Bible clearly teaches justification by faith: "The just shall live by faith" (Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38).
Paul preached this doctrine: "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man [Jesus] is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38-39).
Paul emphasized justification by faith in his writings: "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight… But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe… Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:20-25). "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16). Romans 4 and Galatians 3 contain much additional teaching on this subject.
The bottom line is this: no one can be justified by observing the law of Moses or by doing good works. Instead, the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for us. Having established this, we must next determine what true faith in Christ is and how to have it. For a start, we note the words of Benjamin Warfield: "Justification by faith does not mean… salvation by believing things instead of doing right. It means pleading the merits of Christ before the throne of grace instead of our own merits." [4]


And saved by grace alone througth faith


Salvation Comes Only Through Faith in Jesus Christ

Not only does each man need salvation, there is nothing man can do to save himself. No amount of good works or adherence to law can save a man. Ephesians 2:8-9 proclaims, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." This means salvation is a free gift from God. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ made this free gift of salvation available, and the only way to receive salvation is to have faith in Jesus and in the sufficiency of His sacrifice. Of course, saving faith in Christ includes obedience to His gospel and application of His gospel to our lives. (See Chapter 2 - Grace and Faith for further discussion of grace and faith.)
We must stress that salvation can come only through faith, and that faith must be in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus asserted, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). He also said we must believe He is God manifested in the flesh as our Savior. "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).
Why is reliance upon Christ absolutely necessary? Since all men are sinners, the holiness of God demanded that He separate Himself from sinful man and also required death as a penalty for man. God chose to bind Himself by the principle of death for sin. Without the shedding of blood (the giving of a life) there can be no remission or release from this penalty (Hebrews 9:22) and no restoration to fellowship with the holy God. (See Ephesians 2:13-17; Colossians 1:19-22.) The death of animals is not sufficient to remit the sin of man (Hebrews 10:4), because man is much greater than the animals in that he was created in the spiritual, mental, and moral image of God (Genesis 1:27). Neither can an ordinary man become the substitutionary sacrifice for another, for all deserve eternal death for their own sins.
In order to provide a suitable substitute, God manifested Himself in flesh through the man Jesus Christ. Christ is the only sinless man who has ever lived, so He was the only One who did not deserve to die and who could be a perfect substitute. Therefore, His death became a propitiation or an atonement - the means by which God can pardon sins without violating His holiness and justice (Romans 3:23-26). God does not excuse our sins, but He has inflicted the penalty for those sins on the innocent man Christ. This substitution avails to us when we place our faith in Christ and apply His gospel to our lives. Thus the substitutionary, atoning death of Christ was made necessary by (1) the sinfulness of man, (2) the holiness of God, and (3) God's law requiring death as the punishment for sin. This is why there can be no salvation outside Jesus Christ.

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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #33  
Old 05-17-2011, 03:12 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
what's BDAG?
anything like PBJ? or BLT? or GLBT?
Brown, Driver, Someone and Someone else
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #34  
Old 05-17-2011, 03:19 PM
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
Every word of the Bible is important...we need to pray that we will have the wisdom to rightly divide it...
Why does God's word need to be "divided". Never understood the application of that word. What about the wisdom to rightly "unify" God's word? Even that doesn't make sense.
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  #35  
Old 05-17-2011, 03:41 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Why does God's word need to be "divided". Never understood the application of that word. What about the wisdom to rightly "unify" God's word? Even that doesn't make sense.
KJV 2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
NET 2Ti 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.

The word there in 1Tim means

Accurately is a figure of speech that literally means something like "cutting a straight road." In regard to the message of truth, it means "correctly handling" or "imparting it without deviation.

Another reason why I don't like the KJV. Thanks for bringing this up
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #36  
Old 05-17-2011, 03:57 PM
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
KJV 2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
NET 2Ti 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.

The word there in 1Tim means

Accurately is a figure of speech that literally means something like "cutting a straight road." In regard to the message of truth, it means "correctly handling" or "imparting it without deviation.

Another reason why I don't like the KJV. Thanks for bringing this up
I like it because the word meanings are much more expressive, like Spanish. It has a deeper feel and I like that. For instance, in Spanish - Thank you is "de nada" - meaning, "It is nothing."

Much more expressive in the KJV and I love it!
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  #37  
Old 05-17-2011, 04:10 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

Adam is a good example of why I don't and why I don't think it is more expressive but confusing. The greek might be more expressive but the KJV attempt at translation in our modern english world is not
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #38  
Old 05-17-2011, 04:15 PM
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Adam is a good example of why I don't and why I don't think it is more expressive but confusing. The greek might be more expressive but the KJV attempt at translation in our modern english world is not
IMO, the larger percentage of the text is good. I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes I use other translations to get a better idea of what is being said, but, overall, I don't need to do that. It's written on a fifth grade reading level, maybe that has something to do with it.
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  #39  
Old 05-17-2011, 04:22 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

The irony is in my experience people who aren't well educated have a hard time with the KJV. The thees and thous trip them up, yet other translations such as NKJV are supposed to be harder to read
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-17-2011, 04:28 PM
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Re: Where do I Belong? Part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
The irony is in my experience people who aren't well educated have a hard time with the KJV. The thees and thous trip them up, yet other translations such as NKJV are supposed to be harder to read
It is a little weird, I guess, but they are harder for me to read. I don't know what it is about it, but there isn't a flow like I feel with the KJV. I suppose it could be personal preference, I don't know.

In the KJV, I can catch a word, a thought or a phrase, in the NT, that I remember seeing in the OT and vice versa. It isn't that obvious to me in other translations, so I don't like that.
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