I am an Open Theist for the most part, my good friend continually leans more towards Calvinistic Predestination. We argue about this issue quite often. I think God is sovereign and could control every aspect of our life, but that such would render "free will" a fairy tale. He thinks God absolutely writes our every path and decision, yet we are allowed "free will" to operate within what God has already predestined for us.
In the end, I think God has a plan for us, and that if we will surrender to His will He will lead us in it. If we refuse to follow His will, we have the freedom to do so. Our lives IMO are not some script where no matter what we do, we have to arrive at some predestined outcome. We choose what we will do and where we will end up. God knows everything we oculd do, and every possible outcome of every possibel choice we could make, and I believe He nudges us in the right direction. I don't believe He controls our actions or "knows" exactly what choices we will make however.
Since God is already at the end of all things, and knws how it will turn out, if He "knows' our every decision...then there is no way to change them. That means that from the very beginning we have in actuality had no real choice but to dfo what we have already done. It was already "written". If this is true, then we have not had freedom, "free will", to do anything. It was already determined what we would do before we were even a thought in our parents heads.
I prefer the Open Theist view. I could be dead wrong in the end thogh and I admit that. It isn't salvific in nature.
This is pretty much where I stand. To the original question, I believe it's more like #2, but with heavy doses of direct involvement.
It's raining. Very welcome rain, in this TX drought. Did God do it?
I believe that God placed the cycles of the climate in order from the beginning. I see nothing about the current state of things that are outside of the bounds God set from the beginning.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Human nature is a funny thing. alot of times people throw out 'What if" scenarios in an apparent effort to stimulate thought...but in truth it is nothing more then self justification.
God is as involved in our lives as we let him. He will not override your free will, your right to choose. Relationship is a choice not a mandate. We choose to love, we choose our spouse - for many reasons, but the bottom line..we love them and choose them.
God created us for relationship, he communed with Adam in the cool of the day...it has ALWAYS been about a relationship, and that involves a choice, not only on Gods part, but on ours as well. In the case of sinners who are self willed and entrenched in all manner of evil, it is a choice...now they may never have heard the Gospel...I understand that argument...having said that, there are laws of the land...people who claim total ignorance of right and wrong are obsurd.
Now, what about the person hurt or wronged by the actions of another...that is an even deeper question, one worth answering...but I'm at work!
I think that it all depends on one's view of God's intensions. I believe God is in full control and His will is always done. God sets boundaries for sin, evil, and Satan (Job). I believe that God permits and even uses the intensions of the wicked to serve His ultimate purpose - to fashion a people in the image and likeness of Christ.
I think that it all depends on one's view of God's intensions. I believe God is in full control and His will is always done. God sets boundaries for sin, evil, and Satan (Job). I believe that God permits and even uses the intensions of the wicked to serve His ultimate purpose - to fashion a people in the image and likeness of Christ.
I believe pretty much the exact opposite.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I disagree with Sproul's outlook on this one. Did God really involve Himself and His holiness in determining the outcome of the roll of dice in my grand-niece's game of "Chutes-And-Ladders?"
Was it the will of God that I had two eggs at breakfast, or did I choose that? Did God guide my hand so that I chose just the "right" eggs from the carton in the fridge, or did it really matter? Those eggs that remain, were they spared by God? Why were these eggs unfertilized while other eggs are fertilized and produce chicks?
For that matter... apply these questions to human fertilization. That month before we became pregnant with my first born son, did God choose that ova to die unfertilized despite all of my best efforts?
Are the molecules which constitute the good Rev. Sproul's keyboard with which he typed out this article ordained of God to be there and NOT, say, in the Vibram soles of his footwear?
Pel, I can see what you are saying. The whole concept of trying to reconcile divine sovereignty and human free will is confusing. Nobody has all the answers this side of heaven.
I grew up believing that human free will meant that God was not in control of everything. Still, there are a lot of Scriptures that seem to point to God's sovereignty over every detail. For example:
Quote:
The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.
(Proverbs 16:33 ESV)
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
(Ephesians 1:11 ESV)
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
(Matthew 10:29-30 ESV)
For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
(Acts 4:27-28 ESV)
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
(Psalm 139:16 ESV)
Remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
(Isaiah 46:9-10 ESV)
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"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
I think that it all depends on one's view of God's intensions. I believe God is in full control and His will is always done. God sets boundaries for sin, evil, and Satan (Job). I believe that God permits and even uses the intensions of the wicked to serve His ultimate purpose - to fashion a people in the image and likeness of Christ.
Then you have to believe in UR.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
But if you argue that God is involved in the life of the Church, since He is the head of it, why is He not as involved in the lives of unbelievers?
That makes your argument to say that God is only active in a select few, which albeit He is still active, but that limits God in the grand scheme of being involved in all of His creation.
The best answers can come from Elihu the Buzite and from God in their answer to Job , in the book of Job.. There they explain in detail the actions of God .....
God has given the Church the responsibility to evangelize the world, He is saving some...but not all...Jesus said when he comes will he find faith in the earth? God made all things by faith..hence by speaking and calling those things into existence and I feel that he desires for us to use our faith to call into existence souls ; or to bring them in through faith....by calling on his name...and bringing him into action moving him to save; by our expectation of him.. he called us to be gods..rulers of the spiritual realm...not allowing Satan to rule over us nor our possessions or territory..to take kingdoms and regions in the earth through the authority we have by Jesus Christ....
I believe this is the avenue He wishes us to take....
We cannot change people or make them believe but we can through faith in God's Word take dominion in the world..and change everything. but not with hands..
Not necessarily. Even the idea of eternal punishment serves to glorify God's righteousness and as an eternal example of judgement against evil. God is eternally righteous and holy...a crime against Him and His nature requires eternal consequence. For example, an assault against me is a misdemeanor, an assault against the President is a felony. An assault against God is a crime of an eternal nature.
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