I know our Pastor is on salary. I have never asked how that salary is determined nor do I know how much it is.
I do know it is a pretty good amount. I say that because he is paid monthly and has said that on more than one occasion he has not taken a paycheck some months in order to pay the church bills or various special offerings/needs. So in essence, he makes enough that he could go without a paycheck for an entire month an be fine. I also know he has bought things for the church as a gift from he and his wife that cost a few thousand dollars and didn't bat an eye during our building program.
I don't know anyone making what I am making that could just go without a paycheck for a month and not be really really hurting. Nor do I know anyone making what I make that could just go out and plop down a couple thousand dollars for new equipment for the church.
In his defense of course, it could be that he has been extremely frugal and has a very substantial savings account to draw from in these instances. I do not know. I do want to be sure to try to see both sides and possibilities though.
They need salaries from the church and/or a secular job. They should have a retirement account and benefits. Do they not pay into Social Security and pay income tax? Why doesn't the Organization handle this? Other denominations do, including retirement homes for Pastors.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Let me just say that discussions like this...while interesting, are essentially private matters within the local assemblies....what I mean by that is the opinion, views and motives of both the church in question (either yours or anothers), as well as that of the individual posters here on the forum are unknown to the readers here...unless you go to the same church and have the same pastor, or you know each othwer personally.
Why is that important? Simply because we all only have our own experiences - past, and present, to draw from. Some folks here have been raised in and grew with the Church they attend and have had nothing but wonderful fellowship and growth...while others obviously not so much...so you will get a lot of answers and opinions that vary greatly...especially on matters like tithing, how finances should be used, and yes...standards.
We need to be able to trust those in leadership in our own respective church's...if you can't or don't...no answer will ever bring closure or direction...it will become circular in nature. I know that everyone has heard this MANY times...but the best way to resolve a conflict or answer a question is to sit down with the pastor and ask...I mean really, is there any other way to really handle a question about salary, money, and their stance on tithing etc?
The reaction or the action you get from a private discussion MIGHT give you some idea of the heart, motive, and direction of the pastor / leadership. I think the big problem with such a thing is the fear ingrained in many Apostolics to not "question" the pastor etc. But I think you need to be polite, courteous, but unafraid to ask the tough questions...ask them....either they will or won't answer you.
Juast trying to look at this subject from a more balanced level approach...
Let me just say that discussions like this...while interesting, are essentially private matters within the local assemblies....what I mean by that is the opinion, views and motives of both the church in question (either yours or anothers), as well as that of the individual posters here on the forum are unknown to the readers here...unless you go to the same church and have the same pastor, or you know each othwer personally.
Why is that important? Simply because we all only have our own experiences - past, and present, to draw from. Some folks here have been raised in and grew with the Church they attend and have had nothing but wonderful fellowship and growth...while others obviously not so much...so you will get a lot of answers and opinions that vary greatly...especially on matters like tithing, how finances should be used, and yes...standards.
We need to be able to trust those in leadership in our own respective church's...if you can't or don't...no answer will ever bring closure or direction...it will become circular in nature. I know that everyone has heard this MANY times...but the best way to resolve a conflict or answer a question is to sit down with the pastor and ask...I mean really, is there any other way to really handle a question about salary, money, and their stance on tithing etc?
The reaction or the action you get from a private discussion MIGHT give you some idea of the heart, motive, and direction of the pastor / leadership. I think the big problem with such a thing is the fear ingrained in many Apostolics to not "question" the pastor etc. But I think you need to be polite, courteous, but unafraid to ask the tough questions...ask them....either they will or won't answer you.
Juast trying to look at this subject from a more balanced level approach...
Perhaps you have misunderstood my intent or you are just spouting off to hear yourself sound wise but either way you are way off base of what I am after.
I grew up Catholic. The org. controls everything. Priests are given a small stipend and their living expenses/arrangements, travel, etc. are paid for. Nuns take a vow of poverty, 'nuff said. I was Baptist for a decade. Our preachers recieved a salary and income and expenditures for the church were covered by a treasurer and/or board but it was all very open.
My experience in OP churches has been the model above. I am trying to gleen if this is typical or non-typical, simple as that... Reading a whole bunch of garbage about arguement and even standards into it is not helpful. I believe it is important because each of us is as responsible for where our money marked for God's work goes as we are for any other money we are in control of, maybe more so.
I'm not asking anyone to call out their current or former or ANY church by name. If this is not a place to ask questions we can all just shut off our computers now.
Last edited by Titus2woman; 09-12-2012 at 08:50 AM.
I really don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but you get what you pay for. Do you pay tithes out of your heart, or just because? After all it's God's anyway. I don't know any Pastor's personally that are living high off the hog while their congregation suffers. I agree the best thing to do is talk to your Pastor one on one.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
I really don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but you get what you pay for. Do you pay tithes out of your heart, or just because? After all it's God's anyway. I don't know any Pastor's personally that are living high off the hog while their congregation suffers. I agree the best thing to do is talk to your Pastor one on one.
Every time you talk Cindy I wish I lived close enough to come to your church
This is not the case on our local churches though... Pastors that have to live two towns over to live in 'master planned communities' while some of the saints are on foodstamps... Well...
Wow...slow down Titus...not sure why you decided to attack me on this. I have been around on this forum awhile and have seen many discussions come around again and again.
I agree to accountability in finances...so we are on the same page there. To be honest, I have no idea what, if any, money my current pastor makes off of the church...I know he works a secular job. My little bit of experience is that most folks do not know and the pastors salary (if any) is not discussed....I have not seen it discussed in business meetings or otherwise...but like I said...that is just my experience...others here may have different experiences.
Every time you talk Cindy I wish I lived close enough to come to your church
This is not the case on our local churches though... Pastors that have to live two towns over to live in 'master planned communities' while some of the saints are on foodstamps... Well...
We have been very blessed with Pastors here. Loving, humble, giving men. They have kept up maintenance of the church property, mowed the lawn, etc. And in East TX heat that is no small thing. My opinion is Pastor's should be payed out of tithing if possible, along with the church bills being paid. If that is not possible, they might need secular jobs. Sometimes we give more and sometimes less, just whatever way we can. I do believe in accountability from the Pastor and the saints.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
I wanted to add 3 cents to this discussion thread.
I feel that a responsible thing for a minister to do is make sure that they have income and benefits coming in from some source other than their church work as well as insurance. I say this primarily because there are churches where the people don't have to give or in some cases don't/won't give. There may be cases (I don't know for sure) of preachers who are getting food stamps or other types of public assistance, or if the majority of the people in the church are on welfare, it's just not a wise thing to hope that the people can pay.
But on another matter, my pastor says, "People can't pay me to preach and they can't pay me to shut up". It seems like in some cases the preacher may curtail what thus saith the Lord because they are scared that the heavy givers will be offended by the preaching and teaching. How many preachers privately believe in the Oneness of God and the water baptism in Jesus' name and are scared to teach it because their churches may vote them out? MichaeltheDisciple mentioned just such a case in his testimony on another thread. So personal responsibility on the part of the preacher is very important.
Also, I want to say that if we are going to a church and giving them money of any substance we should know where that money is going. This poses a problem I think for those of us who are not official members of churches because in many cases the church business meetings are closed for members only. I have been in Oneness believing churches where you may give money regularly in envelopes with your name and address on it and at the end of the year that church won't remember to give you a charitable donation document for your income tax return. And then there are trinitarian (anti-apostolic) churches and ministries that are classed as 501c-3 that will give documentation.
So overall, I think there needs to be personal responsibility and proper accountability on the parts of all: preacher, church member and regular church visitor.
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