Holinisness is not....

[Aquila]

Now, don't get me wrong. The born again believer can indeed overcome the inclinations of their flesh (carnal desires, hormones, genetics, etc.) by surrendering to the Spirit's leading. Also, it is a daily act of surrender. This is where the holy nature of the Spirit in our spirit affects the emotions, then our reasoning, and finally our will. When we have felt conviction and come to an understanding of the wrong, we surrender our will and mortify the desires of the flesh (be they rooted in our carnal mind, affected by hormones, or even genetics). In many cases (those rooted in biology) a healing is in order. We can surrender our will and pray for healing and deliverance in these situations. God is a good God.

This is all really basic soteriology as it relates to our ontological make up.

[Aquila]

Those who do not believe that they still have that ol' carnal nature in the flesh, nor that we battle the carnal mind deep in our soul, actually demonstrate the religious side of the carnal nature. The side that hides the gritty, dirty, vile side of their being, refuses to accept it, and thereby they most often fail to address it. For them, this is the highest level of "holiness" they will ever achieve... because they don't believe that they have anything to overcome, nor do they believe in a process of growing in an ever increasing level of sanctification where we overcome the carnal and sinful nature of the flesh. In essence, they are frozen in a theological framework that is static rather than being spiritually dynamic, advancing from glory to glory. And for this reason, the very realty of grace is lost on them... because they technically see themselves as having "arrived" rather than being a spiritual work in progress.

Ah, the spiritual blood poison of Pelagius' doctrine!

Remember, our theological perspective has deep implications. For those who believe they don't have a carnal nature any longer... I wish you well. However, you'll discover that you still do. God loves to knock us off our horses, remove our vision, and lead us into deeper truth. And at some point most repent of the idea... and then see themselves as the desperate creature we truly are in need of ever abounding grace, and then they'll not have to deny the battle on the inside that they've experienced and denied.

If you believe that you are currently living in absolute perfection predicated upon your ability to be perfect, having the carnal and sinful nature eradicated in it's entirety, I can only say... good luck. See ya on the other side. I'll accept what is actually in me, my flesh that is, and throw myself down before a God of love and grace... a God who is renewing me and is faithful to complete the work He began in me, as I progress from glory to glory... ever increasing in my being conformed to His image and likeness.

If you've arrived... this is the best you'll ever be. For those of us who embrace the doctrines of grace... that is a horrifying thought.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Well the, it's settled, hormones don't exist or affect us! LOL (jk)

No, seriously...

Paul speaks eloquently about the Christian's battle between "the flesh" and "the spirit". When we say "the flesh" we speak of everything pertaining to our carnal nature. That would include our biology and even aspects of our psychological well being. I've seen saints of God with chemical imbalances who exhibit very vile and sinful behaviors. Paul said, there is no good thing in the flesh. This would also include any genetic issues that have resulted from our fallen nature. If you're correct... the Christian would have no battle with the flesh. This is why not only is the position that our sinful nature is entirely eradicated unbiblical... but it's also disproven by the universal Christian experience. This reality also highlights the need and absolute importance of grace.

I am going to assume that you are speaking of Romans 7 as to the place where Paul "eloquently about the Christian's battle between "the flesh" and "the spirit" plase dont be satified with a romans 7 experience but move on to a romans 8 experience.

Though the carnal nature is removed and as paul said in romans 6 "destroyed" ( which for the record is where that pesky eradication doctrine comes from) we must be ever vigilant not to fall back into sin. It is like a grden you weed the garden you add mulch to keep the weeds out then you keep the gardened mulched and free from weeds as opposed to simply accepting that you will always have weeds and there is nothing you can do about it so you only pull one weed a day or only those right beside your plants. A weed free garden will grow much faster and produce much more than a weedy garden and so it is with a christian those without the weeds of the carnal nature will exhibit more growth than those who simply accept the weeds.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

I am going to assume that you are speaking of Romans 7 as to the place where Paul "eloquently about the Christian's battle between "the flesh" and "the spirit" plase dont be satified with a romans 7 experience but move on to a romans 8 experience.

The entire NT is full of references with regards to overcoming the still carnal nature of the flesh. One need not only refer to Romans 7. However, with reference to Romans 7, the tense of the words speak of a present battle. Romans 8 shows us how to overcome the still carnal nature of the flesh... we overcome it by consciously walking in the Spirit. If we are in the Spirit, we will overcome the deeds (desires) of the still fallen and carnal flesh. You can't "overcome" or "mortify" something that was "destroyed". If it's "destroyed" in the sense that you're using the term, it's gone. Nothing to overcome. Nothing to mortify. Nothing to chose against.

That's why we must understand the old nature being destroyed categorically. With regards to the human "spirit", the born again believer's inner man is regenerated. The fallen nature of the spirit is no longer present. Instead, the human spirit of the born again believer is cleansed, purified. The old nature of the fallen human spirit is now destroyed by the presence of the Holy Spirit. On the level of the spirit, the believer is now freely partaking in the divine nature through grace.

The flesh (physical biological aspect of man) is not glorified or regenerated yet. Neither is the mind of the soul, which must be renewed through prayer, study, fasting, meditation, and surrender.

Though the carnal nature is removed and as paul said in romans 6 "destroyed" ( which for the record is where that pesky eradication doctrine comes from)

One must think categorically. I'd like to see chapter and verse.

we must be ever vigilant not to fall back into sin.

If the carnal nature is absolutely destroyed... it would be impossible to fall into sin. It would be against our nature because it wouldn't be in our nature. You have an ontological failure here.

It is like a grden you weed the garden you add mulch to keep the weeds out then you keep the gardened mulched and free from weeds as opposed to simply accepting that you will always have weeds and there is nothing you can do about it so you only pull one weed a day or only those right beside your plants. A weed free garden will grow much faster and produce much more than a weedy garden and so it is with a christian those without the weeds of the carnal nature will exhibit more growth than those who simply accept the weeds.

If the very seed (nature) of a weed isn't present, there will be no weeds to weed up. The very fact that there are weeds to weed up establishes that the very seed (nature) of the weed exists in the garden.

[Aquila]

Your flesh is still as fallen and carnal as it was before you were born again.

When one is born again, their mind (for the most part) is still carnal and unlearned regarding the things of God. This is overcome through study, prayer, fasting, meditation. This feeds the regenerated human spirit and this is why new converts seem to crave the things of God.

The spirit of the born again believer is one spirit with the Lord through the abiding Holy Spirit. One this level, we partake in the divine nature. Hence, the fallen and carnal nature of the spirit has been destroyed. The born again believer's spirit is a treasure in a still earthen vessel.

Through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, who now abides in our spirits, we surrender to God's will. This is "walking in the Spirit" (Romans 8). And this is necessary to overcome the deeds of the flesh. We must renew our minds through studying and meditating upon the Word. And this affects our will. When we know what is right, we surrender our will to do it. And as a result... we overcome the still sinful nature of our carnal flesh. And when we are walking in victory over the flesh... our regenerated spirits rejoice and have peace.

Essentially, sanctification is striving to align the body and the soul with the now new nature of the spirit... in order to emulate, reflect, display, show forth... Jesus.

[Aquila]

It is impossible to even tempt a being who doesn't have a sinful or carnal nature. This is why God cannot be tempted with sin. However, when we are tempted... the flesh rises up because it sees opportunity to fulfill its still fallen and carnal desires. Why does it rise up to embrace the possibility of sinning when faced with temptation? Because it's still very much carnal and sinful in nature. Our "inner man" (our spirit) recoils from the temptation and even feels remorse, guilt, sorrow, and defeat if, through our will, we allow ourselves to sin. Why? Because the action is against the now new nature abiding in the spirit through the Holy Spirit. So in us... our spirit and our flesh are at war.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The entire NT is full of references with regards to overcoming the still carnal nature of the flesh. One need not only refer to Romans 7. However, with reference to Romans 7, the tense of the words speak of a present battle. Romans 8 shows us how to overcome the still carnal nature of the flesh... we overcome it by consciously walking in the Spirit. If we are in the Spirit, we will overcome the deeds (desires) of the still fallen and carnal flesh. You can't "overcome" or "mortify" something that was "destroyed". If it's "destroyed" in the sense that you're using the term, it's gone. Nothing to overcome. Nothing to mortify. Nothing to chose against.

Please do a comparison with me of terms in romans 7 and in romans 8

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Notice in chapter 7 Paul speaks of captivity and desireing to be delivered from a body of death and from a law of sin. Now lets move to chapter 8.

Romans 8: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Here is the awesome glorious blessed promise of freedom (one of many).

If some was a captive and now have been made free this speaks of entire freedom not partial. What person who is bound in chains would consider themselves from their chains if they were allowed to simply have the chains removed from your foot? No freedom would be to have all the chains removed.

I also listed vrs 3 to show what is spoken of here is not a mere process but rather perfection. Notice that it is specificly speaks of the fact that there was something that the law could not do but the coming death and ressurection of Jesus could. This same terminolgy is used in Hebrews 7.

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Perfection was the aim and goal of the Jesus coming to earth and dying for us it was so that the fall could be countered the poison removed the disease of sin removed.

Hebrews 711 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?:
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:9
which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's why we must understand the old nature being destroyed categorically. With regards to the human "spirit", the born again believer's inner man is regenerated. The fallen nature of the spirit is no longer present. Instead, the human spirit of the born again believer is cleansed, purified. The old nature of the fallen human spirit is now destroyed by the presence of the Holy Spirit. On the level of the spirit, the believer is now freely partaking in the divine nature through grace.

The flesh (physical biological aspect of man) is not glorified or regenerated yet. Neither is the mind of the soul, which must be renewed through prayer, study, fasting, meditation, and surrender.

You are falling into a trap of saying that our spirit can be holy while our bodies are sinful. This is not possible nor is it ever taught in scripture.

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Notice it is not just a promise for a clean spirit and soul but the body/flesh can be cleansed.

Originally Posted by Aquila

One must think categorically. I'd like to see chapter and verse.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The word destroyed here means:

I.to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

A.to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency

B.to deprive of force, influence, power

II.to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

A.to cease, to pass away, be done away

B.to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

C.to terminate all intercourse with one

Originally Posted by Aquila

If the carnal nature is absolutely destroyed... it would be impossible to fall into sin. It would be against our nature because it wouldn't be in our nature. You have an ontological failure here.

Not true Adam Eveand the Angels all were created free from a fallen nature but they were all tempted and fell.

Originally Posted by Aquila

If the very seed (nature) of a weed isn't present, there will be no weeds to weed up. The very fact that there are weeds to weed up establishes that the very seed (nature) of the weed exists in the garden.

New weed seeds can be blown by the wind dropped by birds or planted by enemies thus constant vigilance is needed.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

New weed seeds can be blown by the wind dropped by birds or planted by enemies thus constant vigilance is needed.

If the law of sin, the fallen nature, is no longer at work in your flesh... how could some seed of temptation even appeal and thereby tempt you?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

You are falling into a trap of saying that our spirit can be holy while our bodies are sinful. This is not possible nor is it ever taught in scripture.

What I'm saying is that the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. The flesh isn't regenerated or glorified yet. The spirit has experienced this regeneration in the Holy Ghost. This is why we have to mortify (kill) the desires that reside in the flesh by walking in the Spirit. If the carnal and sinful nature of the flesh was destroyed... we'd never face temptation to sin. It wouldn't appeal because it would be against our nature.

[endtimer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If the law of sin, the fallen nature, is no longer at work in your flesh... how could some seed of temptation even appeal and thereby tempt you?

I agree. Following the parable of the sower, we must have ground that is ready to receive and nourish a seed of temptation for it to grow. A spirit-led person is not friendly ground to this type of seed.