What is SIN? - Page 4

KeptByTheWord · #31 08-02-2016, 09:34 AM

Thanks to everyone for your input... it is quite obvious with multiple scriptural references that in the New Covenant the Torah law is fulfilled when we love others as we love ourselves.

James 2:8 (KJV)
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:8-10 (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

... and as Aquila put it so well and quite simply... sin is the failure to love. That is awesome Aquila, thank you.

This question came up in our weekly fellowship meeting, and some who come are also studying the Hebrew Roots movement, which is similar to the Messianic movement, but a little more "relaxed" or rigid in how they believe the law should be applied.

I suspect that perhaps this scripture I mentioned in 1 John 3:4 is being used to make people who don't know and study the Word, believe that if Torah law is not kept, they are sinning.

Esaias · #32 08-02-2016, 03:28 PM

Saying the law if fulfilled when we love does not mean one can love and yet not actually do what is commanded.

It should also be remembered that "love thy neighbor" is part of the law to begin with, Lev 19:18. There is no disjunction between "love" and the law of God.

Sin is the transgression of the law, always was and always will be.

Esaias · #33 08-02-2016, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Thanks to everyone for your input... it is quite obvious with multiple scriptural references that in the New Covenant the Torah law is fulfilled when we love others as we love ourselves.

James 2:8 (KJV)
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:8-10 (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

... and as Aquila put it so well and quite simply... sin is the failure to love. That is awesome Aquila, thank you.

This question came up in our weekly fellowship meeting, and some who come are also studying the Hebrew Roots movement, which is similar to the Messianic movement, but a little more "relaxed" or rigid in how they believe the law should be applied.

I suspect that perhaps this scripture I mentioned in 1 John 3:4 is being used to make people who don't know and study the Word, believe that if Torah law is not kept, they are sinning.

Also, a lot of HR/Messianics use "Torah" in the same sense Jews do, meaning Talmud and rabbinic traditions of the Pharisees. When anyone starts throwing the word "Torah" around I ask them to define it specifically: do they mean WRITTEN Law of God, Tanakh (Scripture), or Mishna/Gemara/Halachah (oral tradition, rabbinic commentary, and rabbinic rules)?

shazeep · #34 08-03-2016, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I suspect that perhaps this scripture I mentioned in 1 John 3:4 is being used to make people who don't know and study the Word, believe that if Torah law is not kept, they are sinning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Saying the law if fulfilled when we love does not mean one can love and yet not actually do what is commanded.

It should also be remembered that "love thy neighbor" is part of the law to begin with, Lev 19:18. There is no disjunction between "love" and the law of God.

Sin is the transgression of the law, always was and always will be.

Christ broke the Law, intentionally. Didn't He?

Esaias · #35 08-03-2016, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

Christ broke the Law, intentionally. Didn't He?

Nope. But then again, depends on your definition of "law". Broke halachah? Yes, repeatedly. Broke the written Torah? Never.

shazeep · #36 08-03-2016, 09:46 AM

ok, i think we might be splitting hairs a little, but i agree. Nonetheless, He knew that His statement to the council would be interpreted as blasphemy, and an argument can be made that He intentionally disregarded a law that was punishable by death, and that even the citizens of the day would have stoned Him for it, and would not have been punished, on the testimony of witnesses. Civil punishment denotes civil crime, iow. Christ was crucified because He broke the law, technically speaking.

Esaias · #37 08-03-2016, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, i think we might be splitting hairs a little, but i agree. Nonetheless, He knew that His statement to the council would be interpreted as blasphemy, and an argument can be made that He intentionally disregarded a law that was punishable by death, and that even the citizens of the day would have stoned Him for it, and would not have been punished, on the testimony of witnesses. Civil punishment denotes civil crime, iow. Christ was crucified because He broke the law, technically speaking.

Please demonstrate his sin and appropriate punishment.

Aquila · #38 08-03-2016, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Saying the law if fulfilled when we love does not mean one can love and yet not actually do what is commanded.

It should also be remembered that "love thy neighbor" is part of the law to begin with, Lev 19:18. There is no disjunction between "love" and the law of God.

Sin is the transgression of the law, always was and always will be.

It entirely depends upon how one views the Law. For example, one view is that in simply loving one's neighbor (easier said than done) one fulfills the very spirit and intent of the entire law. However, if others see the Law as a series of specific eternal commandments, then would have to argue that in order to properly love, one must fulfill those specific commandments.

I like to test theories and interpretations by pushing them to the point of applicability. I call it, "applied theology". Let's "apply" the point you're making. Can you present a law that wouldn't be fulfilled by one simply loving one's neighbor as themselves? Should such a commandment be presented we have to determine its nature by asking, "Is it moral, civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical (relating to the priesthood)?" The answer to this question will clearly cancel out a significant number of civil, ceremonial, and Levitical laws that only serve as types and shadows or perhaps are only relating to the cultural context of the ancient Hebrew nation.

So, let's ask.... What law wouldn't be fulfilled by one simply loving one's neighbor as themselves?

I trust that the Apostle Paul's statement will prove to be true every time:

Romans 13:8-10 (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

shazeep · #39 08-03-2016, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Please demonstrate his sin and appropriate punishment.

that is just changing the frame; of course i cannot. But then i am not trying to, either. Christ broke the law in other instances, too; it was no doubt illegal to accost merchants in the temple as well. Legality does not equal morality is the point. An examination of 'what is sin' has to contemplate that there are circumstances in which it is not a sin to break the law iow.

Esaias · #40 08-03-2016, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

that is just changing the frame; of course i cannot. But then i am not trying to, either. Christ broke the law in other instances, too; it was no doubt illegal to accost merchants in the temple as well. Legality does not equal morality is the point. An examination of 'what is sin' has to contemplate that there are circumstances in which it is not a sin to break the law iow.

Changing the frame? You said Christ broke the law. I am asking you to demonstrate that he broke the law, and to show what the appropriate punishment for his breaking the law (sin) was.

Can you do that?