Firearms Refresher Course

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The reason Sheltiedad didn't show the bottom of his pale hairless legs!

LOL....

You have to confess those shoes are kind of cute, but you also have to confess that those are probably the uglies legs that you've ever seen. He's proud of that and want everyone to admire them. YUK 0

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Prax,

IMHO, any intentional taking of a life is evil in these new testament times.

Yes but that is your opinion. Is it a fact though? Did God command Israel to do evil when he commanded them to take a life? Does God change? Why would something be not evil and then become evil? That makes no sense for God to change His mind on what is evil and what is not.

In much of the book of Acts, and through most of the writing of the new testament, the disciples had evil men trying to kill them because of their belief in Jesus Christ. Yet nowhere do we find that they took up arms to defend themselves from these evil men. They ran away, scattering themselves, and hiding from the opposition.

There are no instances of a loved one being attacked so we have no evidence that any believer would come to their aid or just watch them be raped and murdered and do nothing. Also in the case of Acts these were instances of persecutions, not protecting a family. They were glad to be persecuted and counted it an honor. We are not talking about that here though. What you are doing is comparing apples and oranges.

I wonder, why didn't Peter tell Cornelius he had to leave the Roman army? See? We can go back and forth all day long and speculate.

I find scriptures that state that we are to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us", and scriptures that say "render not evil for evil", and scriptures that say "Love seeketh not its own". But I find no new testament scriptures that back up the claim to take up arms to defend ones family and self against an intruder.

Once again I have to repeat this and Im not sure why. StMatt....nobody here said we SHOULD render evil for evil. That's talking about revenge, payback. That is NOT talking about protecting someone from harm. I just pointed that out and you act like you didn't read it?

Second, Im not claiming taking up arms to defend your family is a doctrine we teach people, no more than taking a dump in a white toilet is...you got scripture for that? The bible does NOT forbid or address protecting your family. The bible makes a distinction between taking a life in righteousness and murder. We are to do no murder.

So what I am asking of you or anyone that holds that view is since I have posted several verses that deal with not defending ones self to show scripturally where the bible allows such to be done. Not saying it ain't there. I just don't see it.

Is it a "view"? I don't have bible for my view that microwave ovens cook faster either. See what Im saying?

I have to ask a question that nobody else seems to answer...how do you feel about the death penalty? How do you feel about imprisonment for any period of time. Does the bible tell Christians we should support that?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes but that is your opinion. Is it a fact though? Did God command Israel to do evil when he commanded them to take a life? Does God change? Why would something be not evil and then become evil? That makes no sense for God to change His mind on what is evil and what is not.


There are no instances of a loved one being attacked so we have no evidence that any believer would come to their aid or just watch them be raped and murdered and do nothing. Also in the case of Acts these were instances of persecutions, not protecting a family. They were glad to be persecuted and counted it an honor. We are not talking about that here though. What you are doing is comparing apples and oranges.

I wonder, why didn't Peter tell Cornelius he had to leave the Roman army? See? We can go back and forth all day long and speculate.


Once again I have to repeat this and Im not sure why. StMatt....nobody here said we SHOULD render evil for evil. That's talking about revenge, payback. That is NOT talking about protecting someone from harm. I just pointed that out and you act like you didn't read it?

Second, Im not claiming taking up arms to defend your family is a doctrine we teach people, no more than taking a dump in a white toilet is...you got scripture for that? The bible does NOT forbid or address protecting your family. The bible makes a distinction between taking a life in righteousness and murder. We are to do no murder.


Is it a "view"? I don't have bible for my view that microwave ovens cook faster either. See what Im saying?

I have to ask a question that nobody else seems to answer...how do you feel about the death penalty? How do you feel about imprisonment for any period of time. Does the bible tell Christians we should support that?

When you want to discuss this in a civil manner with scriptural support from a new testament point of view, maybe I will respond to your posts further.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

I want to ask all you pacificst who would not protect by whatever means possible including the use of a firearm to protect

1. Your wife, the love of your life

2. Your daughter so tender and mild

3. Your beloved son that carries your own name to the next generation

4. Your nation that has afforded you the freedom to worship God

Being the pacificist that you are, you would rather chose to do nothing while this evil character

1. Rapes your wife as you watch him while you pray for him.

2. Ravages your daughter and you chosing not to "render evil for evil."

3. Abuses your son in a horrible manner as he cries out to you begging his daddy for help while daddy does nothing remembering that "veangence is mine, saith the Lord."

4. Allow your nation that has afforded all of the great freedoms to worship God as many times as you choose too, to fall to the powers of a evil tyrant when you have the power to preserve that feedom for yourself and others, choosing rather to "to pray for your enemies."

Are these the choices that you will make when faced with such evil. If so, I can plainly tell you that you do not

1. Deserve the wife that you have.

2. Deserve the beautiful little inoncent daughter that calls you daddy.

3. Deserve a son that will carry on your name to generations to come

4. A nation that has chosen to provide for you all the things that you enjoy so freely given to you by the blood of others, not willing to make the same sacrifice for another generation.

I would recommend that...

1. You tell your wife that if she is raped that you will "pray for her enemy." You should do this in all fairness so that she will know not to depend on you for protection. She may need to decide for herself what to do for protection if that awful day should ever arrive.

2. Give your daughter up for adoption to someone else who would be willing to protect that precious darling.

3. Give your beloved son up for adoption to someone who will teach him that when he becomes a man, it will become his God given duty to provide for and protect his own family. That he must do it as an act of love and devotion as a godly man filled with courage and a conviction of what is right and wrong.

4. Go live in another nation who think the same way that you think and will not fight to preserve what freedoms that they do have. Unfortunately, there is no such nation. They have long ago been swallowed up by an evil nation.

When love does not complel to protect family and nation by whatever means possible, love has fallen short of what God would have it to be. When love is faulty, courage is absent, conviction of what is right has flown away and the person is vulnerable to an evil attack when it will be shown that he never really believed his pacificist doctrine in the first place.

When scriptures are not understood that speak of not taking veangence, loving your enemies, etc., etc., it is very clear that they do not know the mind and attitude of God which has not changed since days of antiquity.

When you wife and daughter is abused and raped in front of your eyes when you have a means to stop it, you cannot even call the police...you will be too busy praying for them. Besides, even if you called the police, you would then be complicit in "rendering evil for evil," because the policeman will definitely STOP the evil man by whatever means possible, including he 9mm glock on his side...doing a job that you should have been doing. After all, the way that you all twist these scriptures that you present in your pacificist ideals, the police render evil for evil every day. So, if you are true to your convictions, you cannot involve the police to render evil for evil.

God has not changed, nor is he brain dead even if some people are.

I honestly think that you are stepping beyond the realm of New Testament scripture with you above post. I guess Stephen was a fool, as he did not fight to save himself amidst the stones that were hitting him. He rather prayed that God would not lay this thing done to the attackers charge. I guess Paul was a fool to allow himself to be captured and taken to Rome in bonds after he was already showed that it would happen. He could have at least taken up sword and given a good fight. I guess when Saul/Paul was catching all those Christians out of hiding, men women, and children, and dragging them off to prison that they should have took up arms and instituted a revolt.

What about all those that died during the Inquisition, or those that have been tortured for Christ without ever "fighting back". Was Richard Wurmbrand wrong to pray for his torturers instead of plotting an riot to destroy them?

No my Brother, You cannot kill your enemies and love your neighbor as yourself at the same time. Vengeance, and justice for that matter, is not in our hands, but in Gods hands.

And by the way, no one here said we would not protect our loved ones. Not speaking for others, but what I have said is that to the taking of a life is not an option. I would give mine for the sake of my families if need be. But to use fatal force would be unbiblical to a New Testament Saint. God does NOT call the New Testament saint to "take up arms". This is an Old Testament shadow of a New Testament spiritual war. We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood.

[TK Burk]

Thanks STMATTHEW!

Great post!

They have yet to see that no one here is saying that God changed. He is THE ONE who is--and always has been--allowed to bring such vengeance. The issue is what does God want His children to do now that He has made the new creatures in Christ? THAT is the question!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

When you want to discuss this in a civil manner with scriptural support from a new testament point of view, maybe I will respond to your posts further.

I can identify with this!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

I want to ask all you pacificst who would not protect by whatever means possible including the use of a firearm to protect

I would recommend that...

1. You tell your wife that if she is raped that you will "pray for her enemy." You should do this in all fairness so that she will know not to depend on you for protection. She may need to decide for herself what to do for protection if that awful day should ever arrive.

2. Give your daughter up for adoption to someone else who would be willing to protect that precious darling.

3. Give your beloved son up for adoption to someone who will teach him that when he becomes a man, it will become his God given duty to provide for and protect his own family. That he must do it as an act of love and devotion as a godly man filled with courage and a conviction of what is right and wrong.

4. Go live in another nation who think the same way that you think and will not fight to preserve what freedoms that they do have. Unfortunately, there is no such nation. They have long ago been swallowed up by an evil nation.

When love does not complel to protect family and nation by whatever means possible, love has fallen short of what God would have it to be. When love is faulty, courage is absent, conviction of what is right has flown away and the person is vulnerable to an evil attack when it will be shown that he never really believed his pacificist doctrine in the first place.

When scriptures are not understood that speak of not taking veangence, loving your enemies, etc., etc., it is very clear that they do not know the mind and attitude of God which has not changed since days of antiquity.

When you wife and daughter is abused and raped in front of your eyes when you have a means to stop it, you cannot even call the police...you will be too busy praying for them. Besides, even if you called the police, you would then be complicit in "rendering evil for evil," because the policeman will definitely STOP the evil man by whatever means possible, including he 9mm glock on his side...doing a job that you should have been doing. After all, the way that you all twist these scriptures that you present in your pacificist ideals, the police render evil for evil every day. So, if you are true to your convictions, you cannot involve the police to render evil for evil.

God has not changed, nor is he brain dead even if some people are.

My, my. You are really against the rulership and power of God, aren't you? I pray God helps your family in time of crisis. I am sure they will rest easy knowing that if it comes, you will be calling 911 and grabbing your gun, instead of praying and relying on God. I mean, it is really unthinkable that an Apostolic would just believe in God....

Brother Strange, I would rather opt for prayer to the God, than to rely on Smith and Wesson. Jesus is the One who has ALL power and authority. He has never failed me yet.

[Coonskinner]

Stephen wouldn't defend himself.

There is a big difference between defending yourself, and defending someone else, like your family.

Jesus turned the other cheek when He was smitten, but did get angry on behalf of others.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I can tell you that while I hope not to have to, I would get as violent as necessary to defend my wife and children.

[retsambeW]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Stephen wouldn't defend himself.

There is a big difference between defending yourself, and defending someone else, like your family.

Jesus turned the other cheek when He was smitten, but did get angry on behalf of others.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I can tell you that while I hope not to have to, I would get as violent as necessary to defend my wife and children.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Stephen wouldn't defend himself.

There is a big difference between defending yourself, and defending someone else, like your family.

Jesus turned the other cheek when He was smitten, but did get angry on behalf of others.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I can tell you that while I hope not to have to, I would get as violent as necessary to defend my wife and children.

You sure will if you have at least a half ounce of God in you.