Love One Another and the Cross

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

shaz - I believe I have asked you this, before and never received an answer, but here goes again.

Why was it necessary for Jesus to be crucified?

From all I see that you write (and believe me I do not read everything), you seem to believe that it was not necessary.

Is that really what you believe shaz? That the lamb of God didn't need to be sacrificed?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Is that really what you believe shaz? That the lamb of God didn't need to be sacrificed?

Shaz said muslims cannot be said to be lost simply because the Koran says there is no Son of God (although John said denial of the Son makes one an antichrist) and Jesus was never even crucified.

Go figure.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

So sorry that the truths of the holy scriptures offend you, but your issue is neither with me or Mike...but what thus saith the Word of the Lord.

ok well i have answered Scripture with Scripture, most often with the very Scripture quoted at me in part, just read a little further. So "sorry that Scripture offends you" comes across as "sorry you don't approve of where we stop reading." This is not an either/or proposition.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

shaz - I believe I have asked you this, before and never received an answer, but here goes again.

Why was it necessary for Jesus to be crucified?

From all I see that you write (and believe me I do not read everything), you seem to believe that it was not necessary.

Completely necessary. It is the difference in having Christ on your lips, and having Christ. It isn't even a matter of which comes first; they go together, or they do not. What is "faith in Christ?" It is a phrase, anyone can say it. Many people do. Scripture will tell you that if it leads to such conclusions as "now i am saved, and look, they do not do this, so they are lost," then you have missed the point. You have found another way to be proud and arrogant. This is outlined in many places, several parables.

28“But what do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘My son, go, work in the vineyard today.’z

29“He answered, ‘I don’t want to! ’ Yet later he changed his mind and went. 30Then the man went to the other and said the same thing.

“ ‘I will, sir,’ he answered. But he didn’t go.

31“Which of the two did his father’s will? ”

but you are welcome to make this about Jews and Christians, if you like.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Is that really what you believe shaz? That the lamb of God didn't need to be sacrificed?

no, and i don't believe that if i do enough good deeds i'll be saved, either. I believe i will fail at love my neighbor, and prolly more often at love my enemies, no matter how well i try, and that i am forgiven when i rebound, because Christ shed His blood for me. Which is easier, to love your enemies, or to say 'i believe in Jesus?' Don't even those crying LordLord do the second one? Yet they obviously are denying Christ. You do not accept Christ with your mouth.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Completely necessary. It is the difference in having Christ on your lips, and having Christ. It isn't even a matter of which comes first; they go together, or they do not. What is "faith in Christ?" It is a phrase, anyone can say it. Many people do. Scripture will tell you that if it leads to such conclusions as "now i am saved, and look, they do not do this, so they are lost," then you have missed the point. You have found another way to be proud and arrogant. This is outlined in many places, several parables.

28“But what do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘My son, go, work in the vineyard today.’z

29“He answered, ‘I don’t want to! ’ Yet later he changed his mind and went. 30Then the man went to the other and said the same thing.

“ ‘I will, sir,’ he answered. But he didn’t go.

31“Which of the two did his father’s will? ”

but you are welcome to make this about Jews and Christians, if you like.

Was Peter arrogant in Acts 2 or Acts 10, when he told them what they needed to do to be saved?
Now, we can present the Gospel in such a way that people are not receptive to it. I believe that is what you may be referring to overall.
We need to live it and be prepared to witness when the time and place is right.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

no, and i don't believe that if i do enough good deeds i'll be saved, either. I believe i will fail at love my neighbor, and prolly more often at love my enemies, no matter how well i try, and that i am forgiven when i rebound, because Christ shed His blood for me. Which is easier, to love your enemies, or to say 'i believe in Jesus?' Don't even those crying LordLord do the second one? Yet they obviously are denying Christ. You do not accept Christ with your mouth.

Confusion in plain view. Phareztamar, This guy says no, he does not believe Jesus did not have to be crucified, and at the same time says Muslims who do not believe Jesus was actually crucified are not necessarily lost because of it. Ask him to explain that one. Ask him How necessary is it that Jesus be crucified when those who deny it ever happened can not be said to be lost? Obviously it is not necessary enough to so much as believe he was crucified as far as Muslims go.

When I asked him what remits sins, he quoted Peter saying charity covers many sins. He would never ever quote a verse that says without shedding of blood sins are remitted. When I said law taught works for eternal life, and that it could not work, so grace came and provided the same results of loving God and people that law failed to Instill in man, he asked where I ever got such a belief. I showed him the teaching in the bible and he says he spdisagres with me. Have him explain that one.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Now, we can present the Gospel in such a way that people are not receptive to it. I believe that is what you may be referring to overall.
We need to live it and be prepared to witness when the time and place is right.

amen!

[shazeep]

it is easy to assume you are "witnessing" when you back someone into a corner and tell them what you believe--even though you cannot quote Christ--nor Peter--ever doing this. It is perhaps somewhat harder to realize that it is when you say "Everyone who does not agree with me is lost" that you are witnessing; what is in your heart. And of course you have some Scripture to insist upon, disregarding that you are ignoring much other Scripture.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Was Peter arrogant in Acts 2 or Acts 10, when he told them what they needed to do to be saved?
Now, we can present the Gospel in such a way that people are not receptive to it. I believe that is what you may be referring to overall.
We need to live it and be prepared to witness when the time and place is right.

Amen. I asked him this weeks ago. I asked if he thought they really were lost but asked if his point was how we present it, thinking we should not say they are lost even though they are. He never responded.

He actually believes they can not be said to be lost even though they deny the Son and deny His very crucifixion. When i ask what the detailed purpose of the cross was, then, he never answered.