Love One Another and the Cross

[mfblume]

In my talks with a Muslim on http://www.ask-a-muslim.com I said no such thing as "You are lost, and I can prove it with scripture." He said I was lost. Do I believe the man is lost? Yes! But the approach is important. I showed kindness and honoured his thoughts with respect but also showed him the Word.

He that winneth souls is wise. But wisdom does not include the error that a person need not consciously agree with the crucifixion of Jesus nor consciously accept the fact that God has a Son to be saved.

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Still loving the work of the cross! Every sermon points to it the more I serve the Lord.

People talk about a bloodless gospel just as the prosperity doctrine, but at the same time don't think religious adherents of other faiths need the blood of Jesus on the cross in their faith to be saved. The lack of blood noted in reference to bloodless gospels is the lack of the blood of the cross and lack of the demand for one to consciously know about the cross and Christ;'s vicarious death as us.

I think of the only sign Jesus said He'd give to an adulterous generation. The sign of Jonah. As Jonah was in the whale three days and nights, He would die on the cross, be buried for three days and resurrect from that grave. In other words, of all the signs He could have given, He gave the one that is death, burial and resurrection to be front and centre, indicating to us one is lost as lost can be without faith in the death and resurrection of Christ for their sins.

So, what is truly the bloodless gospel?

[shazeep]

well, what is faith? Is it something one proclaims?

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. I asked him this weeks ago. I asked if he thought they really were lost but asked if his point was how we present it, thinking we should not say they are lost even though they are. He never responded.

He actually believes they can not be said to be lost even though they deny the Son and deny His very crucifixion. When i ask what the detailed purpose of the cross was, then, he never answered.

Look, i answered; you just cannot hear me. When you say "thinking we should not say they are lost even though they are," i am told all i need to know; that you will not listen, no matter what i say, or what anyone else says. I obviously can provide direct answers from Scripture that are inadequate, and refuted by you immediately, not even considered on their merits as direct quotes, so what is the point?

You have found a superior path; a yardstick by which to measure everyone else, and your mind is now revealed to be closed on the matter. I will let you be the judge, because after all, you are just quoting Scripture, and so you cannot be wrong (that is reserved for anyone else quoting Scripture). The detailed purpose of the cross is obviously to bash people over the head with--praise the White Jesus--and you must have found that narrow path, that is sooo hard to find, by insisting that all converts agree with you, or be damned. Congrachalations.

[mfblume]

How you so twist a person's intentions. Wow. Rare extreme at that. Enjoy your bloodless gospel. That's what happens when one stumbles at the cross.

But talk about closed. You won't discuss the scripture. I want to and you won't. You ask for scripture, I provide it and deal with all you said. Then you say the opposite is true.

I am willing to talk but you ended the chats, so how can I be accused of being closed?

[shazeep]

I don't mean to be rude about it, but you have decided that God no longer judges hearts, and that Christ was mistaken, or misunderstood, at Love your neighbor being 9/10ths, because that would be following the law. So what else is there to say? People sought Christ in Scripture when He was right there physically in front of them, too.

I realize that you don't intend to be unkind or arbitrary--as you refuse to deal with the abundant Scripture that does not answer you in the manner to which you have become accustomed--and i hope you see how that makes it worse, not better, as it goes to your most cherished assumptions, without which any religion becomes moot.

So i will tell you that it is when i started applying all those scary verses to myself--in defiance of that voice that so quickly assured me that those applied to others, to "bad people"--and started looking for verses that might allow for "them"--whoever they are--to be accepted, that is when my heart changed. Or maybe started to change.

Did my change of heart mean that any more Muslims were suddenly "saved?" Or that many OPs were suddenly lost? It means that i have lost the yardstick; you are forgiven, and fine just like you are, if you truly seek God. You might seek the meanings of those Scriptures that i replied with, as they are obviously Holy Writ, too.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

I don't mean to be rude about it, but you have decided that God no longer judges hearts, and that Christ was mistaken, or misunderstood, at Love your neighbor being 9/10ths, because that would be following the law. So what else is there to say? People sought Christ in Scripture when He was right there physically in front of them, too.

I realize that you don't intend to be unkind or arbitrary--as you refuse to deal with the abundant Scripture that does not answer you in the manner to which you have become accustomed--and i hope you see how that makes it worse, not better, as it goes to your most cherished assumptions, without which any religion becomes moot.

So i will tell you that it is when i started applying all those scary verses to myself--in defiance of that voice that so quickly assured me that those applied to others, to "bad people"--and started looking for verses that might allow for "them"--whoever they are--to be accepted, that is when my heart changed. Or maybe started to change.

Did my change of heart mean that any more Muslims were suddenly "saved?" Or that many OPs were suddenly lost? It means that i have lost the yardstick; you are forgiven, and fine just like you are, if you truly seek God. You might seek the meanings of those Scriptures that i replied with, as they are obviously Holy Writ, too.

I was dealing with all scripture you presented to catch up and ensure I addressed all you offered in the bible. Then you stopped it all and said forget it. You want to deal with it all or not? I'm willing. Without stopping it again?

[mfblume]

Well?

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Originally Posted by shazeep

I don't mean to be rude about it, but you have decided that God no longer judges hearts,

God judges hearts more than ever since the new covenant started. And regardless of one's confession of Acts 2:38, God looks to the heart to see if there was genuine faith in the work of the cross alone for one's salvation, or else one is lost. I've always maintained that. But you don't believe what I claim I preach and believe. You ignore everything i say. Your judgment of my heart is simply stuck in your head, making you as lost as those whom you claim judge others are lost by your own mouth. Everybody sees the same thing in your words. What's it like pretending nobody says things all around you.

and that Christ was mistaken, or misunderstood, at Love your neighbor being 9/10ths, because that would be following the law.

I never said that, for ten tenths of the time. I said loving each other and God is not the means of salvation from sin. Christ's death on the cross is.

So what else is there to say? People sought Christ in Scripture when He was right there physically in front of them, too.

Seeing you twisted what I said, taking away your argument of there being nothing else to say, will you still misrepresent me and say I said what I did not so as to excuse yourself from actually talking scripture?

I realize that you don't intend to be unkind or arbitrary--as you refuse to deal with the abundant Scripture that does not answer you in the manner to which you have become accustomed

I said many times now I will deal with any scripture you offer. I offered that weeks ago and you claimed it was beyond that now. lol.

--and i hope you see how that makes it worse, not better, as it goes to your most cherished assumptions, without which any religion becomes moot.

Whatever that means.

So i will tell you that it is when i started applying all those scary verses to myself--in defiance of that voice that so quickly assured me that those applied to others, to "bad people"--and started looking for verses that might allow for "them"--whoever they are--to be accepted, that is when my heart changed. Or maybe started to change.

I always applied them to myself. But we were talking about what saves us from sin, and you claimed it was acts of love, which is salvation by works, while I claimed the bible [teaches it's the shed blood of Christ making it HIS work no t ours that saves us.

Every time -- I mean EVERY time -- I offered passages that deal with how the work of the cross saves us not and not our goodness, you refused to deal with them, apart from a terse response once about Romans 4 which you refused to discuss in actual detail. I always maintained love for neighbours and God is absolutely needful, but does not save us. I even said that without those things we lose our salvation, but still they do not save us. Then you got into calvinism and continued to repeat the error that I already addressed saying that my conclusions mean one can wait for the deathbed to get saved if I am right.

Did my change of heart mean that any more Muslims were suddenly "saved?" Or that many OPs were suddenly lost?

Your refusal to agree that everyone must acknowledge the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for their righteousness shows you don't have truth, but a lie of salvation by works. You alluded that you once agrteed with me and allegedly left what I believe, but betray the fact you never knew what I believed first or last when I explained what the law has to do with convincing people they're lost and need God's grace. You never knew that. You acted as though I proposed some unique and new false idea of Romans 3, and I proved to you it is the norm in Christianity, citing commentaries to prove it.

It seems you can't take part in a conversation without distorting everything the other person says. And your continual insistence that it is not possible to not be judging and exalting self when saying everyone who denies the work of the cross is lost, is simply unbelievable.

It means that i have lost the yardstick; you are forgiven, and fine just like you are, if you truly seek God. You might seek the meanings of those Scriptures that i replied with, as they are obviously Holy Writ, too.

All scripture is of God, and again provide what you think I reject, while I continue to propose the crass is the work of God that saves us and not our acts of love, which are simply good deeds. It's not a yardstick, but rather a criss cross death device to Christ who took our deaths willingly as His won, so His salvation and righteousness could be granted without one single good deed to us.

Now, you still going to twist the whole picture I present or actually talk bible?

[shazeep]

i think both of our sides has been pretty well presented at this point; and the truth is prolly somewhere in the middle

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i think both of our sides has been pretty well presented at this point; and the truth is prolly somewhere in the middle

Sigh. Stop copping out all the time.

You haven't said anything to address what I actually believe since you always claimed I believe something I never believed.