Firearms Refresher Course

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So you only espouse to defending others, and not yourself?

I have had my lights knocked out for my testimony. I did not defend myself.

Bro, that is a big stretch. Please tell me how I can shoot down my enemy, and love him at the same time? That IS what we are commanded to do, isn't it? Love your enemies.

In the case of war or capital punishment, it is the love of God in your heart for the "greater good." It is not that you hate your enemy. It is not that you want to render evil for evil against your enemy. It is not that you want to take revenge on your enemy. It is a case of loving God, loving your neighbor, and loving the cherished, blood bought freedoms given to you, your family, your neighbors and for all your descendants greater than the loss of the life of your enemy.

He is not willing to serve the greater good is too narowly focused upon SELF than to be willing to sacrifice self, life, fortune and property for that greater good. As a young man, I knelt and prayed with tears before I entered into the Armed Forces to SERVE you, your family, your neighbors and the future of your nation. I prayed that God would make me the very best that I can be, fully realizing that I might be called on to do the most despised part of military obligations. God did that for me. Today many years later, I have the Department of the USAF certificate hanging on my hallway wall, acknowledging my exceptional service, given to a very few. I proudly display that metal on my clothes even today and admire my own Certificate hanging on my wall, knowing that God helped me to do the best SERVICE that I could render.

I was committed THEN as I am NOW to serve the greater good. It is a principle that is outward focused rather than inward focused.

I think this comment is quite underneath you. BUt none the less, I cannot speak for him, only to say that I did not see where he stated he would hold his wifes hand only while the rapist had his way with her.

Underneath me? Whatelse are you left to believe when the scriptures say to do good to them that does evil? It is HIS own words. I can only imagine what he would do in the way of doing good for this rapist. Maybe prepare dinner for him when he is through? Certainly, he would not knock the man's head off his shoulders because that would be "rendering evil for evil?" So why would you say it is underneath me?

The Old Testament call to "go in and conquer" was a shadow of the Spiritual war we now fight, otherwise Jesus would not have told Peter to put away his sword. The land we go in and possess is not this carnal land, but a spiritual land. Unless of coarse you believe in the "Dominion Now" false doctrine that is being espoused.

Shadow? Yes! But it is MORE than a mere shadow. There was a national interest involved. Had there not been such a national interest, there would not have been an ISRAEL that finally made it into the promised land. The same is true today. Nothing has changed in that regard. God has set up nations for the sake of the people dwelling in that nation. If there were not such thing as national defense...................it is hard to understand your thinking here. Do you suppose you would have what you have today? Have you ever studied the Revolutionary War against Britain? Have you not read how GOD helped the little rag tag Continental Army whip the greatest military force in the world at that time? Can you not see how God has helped the American Armies in wars of her past? You should hear how God helped my Uncle who was right in the middle of the Battle of the Bulge in Belgium during the WWII. God has been revealed so powerfully in working with the American Armies that it is impossible for me to see the Pacificist point of view...since there is a godly interest of the "greater good" involved.

Bro, I am sorry, but there is not one place in the new testament that calls us to take up arms to defend ourselves or our families, but I have provided scripture that implies just the opposite. So the burden of proof is now on you.

I suppose if I were to turn the scriptures around as you all have, I would be a rank pacificist too. But, I am glad that I have a different concept of each of them that seems to me to be a much broader meaning than you all have applied to them.

I have been very plain to say I do not know what I would do in such a case, while showing what I believe scripture says. But my actions, or non-actions has no bearing on scripture. Thus far, all I have seen from the opposite side is supposition, and not sound doctrine. If I am wrong, I have no problem changing my view, as to me this is not a salvational type issue, but just a view. But until someone can present scriptural support when the New Testament gives quite a few verses like "Love you enemies", then I will continue believing what I believe, and hope I never have to be tested in this area.

Cetainly, I understand your confusion or vacilating thoughts. But for me, I clearly understand both the spirit and the letter of the Word in all of the suppose pacificist scriptures. There is no doubt, no conflict, no vacilation on my part. Hence, there is the integrity of thought, scripture and subsequent action without the least hesitation.

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Pacifism is not synonymous with non-intervention. You can involve yourself and make a difference without needing to carry a weapon or to shoot someone and end their life.

again for Brother Strange

You don't have to bump it.

DID I SAY THAT IT WAS SYNONYMOUS? You don't have to put words in my mouth.

Of course you can involve yourself while an evil man is in the process of raping your wife. You can threaten him by telling him that you are going to call the police. That would be INTERVENTION. You might EVEN call the police and wait on the police to arrive. That would be INTERVENTION.

Certainly, you would not take the kids' baseball bat and put an end to the attack...no way! THAT would be rendering EVIL FOR EVIL.

But now, if you are going to do as Jesus said, you would do good for the EVIL...just like Jesus said, following the scriptures. You might even fix the man a great meal after he is done his evil.

In fact, you could not even call the police because the police might have to pull his gun and use it in some cases. THEN, you would be complicit in rendering evil for evil.

But then, since you have all that great faith...nothing like this could ever happen to you and your family, right?

Ho boy! Good grief! There is no one so blind as he who is willing BLIND. I suppose you can believe anything when you twist scriptues, being inward focused.

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

You don't have to bump it.

DID I SAY THAT IT WAS SYNONYMOUS? You don't have to put words in my mouth.

Of course you can involve yourself while an evil man is in the process of raping your wife. You can threaten him by telling him that you are going to call the police. That would be INTERVENTION. You might EVEN call the police and wait on the police to arrive. That would be INTERVENTION.

Certainly, you would not take the kids' baseball bat and put an end to the attack...no way! THAT would be rendering EVIL FOR EVIL.

But now, if you are going to do as Jesus said, you would do good for the EVIL...just like Jesus said, following the scriptures. You might even fix the man a great meal after he is done his evil.

In fact, you could not even call the police because the police might have to pull his gun and use it in some cases. THEN, you would be complicit in rendering evil for evil.

But then, since you have all that great faith...nothing like this could ever happen to you and your family, right?

Ho boy! Good grief! There is no one so blind as he who is willing BLIND. I suppose you can believe anything when you twist scriptues, being inward focused.

elder i would be honored to stand beside a man of such conviction any day any where, with or without a weapn, dt love ya

Originally Posted by DividedThigh

elder i would be honored to stand beside a man of such conviction any day any where, with or without a weapn, dt love ya

D.T....

Thank you. It would be my honor to stand with you as well.

The WORD and the SPIRIT does not disagree with each other. The urge from within to defend the neighbor (wife or nation) by whatever means possible is not the lust of the flesh, but of a greater interest than that OF SELF....which would be carnal interest. A desire to see family, friends, neighbors, and nation preserved, protected and perpetuated for the good is not a SELFISH interest, but is very much godly for which there IS NO contradiction in scripture.

But, like Coon, I don't suppose I am nearly so filled with all that much faith to wait on God to come down and fight WWII without even one soldier or protect the family without us even lifting a hand.

Oh what a worm I am too!

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

D.T....

Thank you. It would be my honor to stand with you as well.

The WORD and the SPIRIT does not disagree with each other. The urge from within to defend the neighbor (wife or nation) by whatever means possible is not the lust of the flesh, but of a greater interest than that OF SELF....which would be carnal interest. A desire to see family, friends, neighbors, and nation preserved, protected and perpetuated for the good is not a SELFISH interest, but is very much godly for which there IS NO contradiction in scripture.

But, like Coon, I don't suppose I am nearly so filled with all that much faith to wait on God to come down and fight WWII without even one soldier or protect the family without us even lifting a hand.

Oh what a worm I am too!

me too brother, chiefest of sinners, but forgiven and happy, dt

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

You don't have to bump it.

DID I SAY THAT IT WAS SYNONYMOUS? You don't have to put words in my mouth.

Yes you did.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

So, she knows that you would obey scriptures as you see it. You would prepare the man's bath water for him in an effort to doing good for your enemy. Afterwards, you would prepare dinner for him.

Then later you said it to STMATTHEW.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Underneath me? Whatelse are you left to believe when the scriptures say to do good to them that does evil? It is HIS own words. I can only imagine what he would do in the way of doing good for this rapist. Maybe prepare dinner for him when he is through? Certainly, he would not knock the man's head off his shoulders because that would be "rendering evil for evil?" So why would you say it is underneath me?

And then in this very post you spoke of it again.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

So, she knows that you would obey scriptures as you see it. You would prepare the man's bath water for him in an effort to doing good for your enemy. Afterwards, you would prepare dinner for him.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

But now, if you are going to do as Jesus said, you would do good for the EVIL...just like Jesus said, following the scriptures. You might even fix the man a great meal after he is done his evil.

Brother Strange, with all due respect, is it your practice to always misrepresent those who oppose your views? I have NEVER said I would do nothing. The examples I gave show this. I put my body in the way of the other’s harm. Is this too hard to understand? Kill a person? No! Stop them? Of course.

Brother Strange, you are being cruel and vulgar concerning my godly wife. In our more than 20 years of marriage she can tell you of times I have protected her in the face of dangers. She will tell you that I did exactly what she expected. And she will also tell you that JESUS never failed us in these instances one time. Never needed to pull a gun, yet, here we are, still alive, safe, and well.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Of course you can involve yourself while an evil man is in the process of raping your wife. You can threaten him by telling him that you are going to call the police. That would be INTERVENTION. You might EVEN call the police and wait on the police to arrive. That would be INTERVENTION.

Why is calling the police wrong? Who said it was? Only you. The Bible says that this is EXACTLY what they are for. I already posted this before, but I will do it again:

Romans 13:3-4
(3) For RULERS are not a terror to good works, but TO THE EVIL. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
(4) For HE IS THE MINISTER OF GOD TO THEE FOR GOOD. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for HE BEARETH NOT THE SWORD IN VAIN: FOR HE IS THE MINISTER OF GOD, A REVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH UPON HIM THAT DOETH EVIL.

Paul is NOT referring to the 'rulers' in churches; he is talking about secular, unsaved leaders. They are the ones who are to carry the sword. Paul said they are for OUR GOOD. God uses such leaders to bring justice. God never intended His Church to do this. We are to preach salvation to the guilty, not judge and kill them.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Certainly, you would not take the kids' baseball bat and put an end to the attack...no way! THAT would be rendering EVIL FOR EVIL.

You are correct. Restrain him. Yes. But, I am not the giver of life, Jesus is. I am also not the taker of life; Jesus is supposed to be the only one to determine that as well.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

In fact, you could not even call the police because the police might have to pull his gun and use it in some cases. THEN, you would be complicit in rendering evil for evil.

During the many times that the apostles escaped danger, were they rendering evil for evil? What about when Paul used his Roman citizenship? Was that using evil for evil? Those opposed to using their own Smith and Wesson are not the ones saying what you are here.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

But then, since you have all that great faith...nothing like this could ever happen to you and your family, right?

Hey, why does believing Jesus for personal safety require more faith than believing Him for one’s salvation, or for healing, or for their needs? Why does protection of one’s body take greater faith than salvation of one’s soul? I think men always have great faith in areas where they trust God greatly. Doesn’t the Bible say that we cannot please God without faith? Where are the limits in having faith in God? Something to think about….

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Ho boy! Good grief! There is no one so blind as he who is willing BLIND. I suppose you can believe anything when you twist scriptues, being inward focused.

Brother, you have not even offered any scriptures. Show us with your Bible where we are twisting what we have included in this discussion. This would be the good thing to do.

Well,

All I hve to say about all of this stupid conversation, you are far more spiritual than I could ever hope to be.

I did not mean to be vulguar concerning your wife, but to present some real possibilities in face of your supposed non-violent stance. But, I have to tell you that I believe you about as much as I believe the moon is made of green cheese.

Take your high and holy road. I will just tell you that I am but a worm and will take violent actions in such a senario as I presented to you.

I will bow out of this conversation since you first accused me of being impolite to you, accused me of not considering the will of God since I used the word "I" twice in a post, accused me of being vulgar with your wife.

Therefore, I have no need in being involved in this, what I consider to be a very hypocritical conversation. I do not pretend to be so holy. I will take up arms when it is needed.

This is the end of my involvment in this DUMB conversation.

God bless you, is my sincere desire for you and your family.

[Sarah]

After reading most of these posts, all I can say is, we've all got a long way to go to be like Jesus.

I suppose only when we have our own 'garden of Gethsemane' will we accomplish that. It took Jesus quite a while for His own flesh to die.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Well,

All I hve to say about all of this stupid conversation, you are far more spiritual than I could ever hope to be.

I did not mean to be vulguar concerning your wife, but to present some real possibilities in face of your supposed non-violent stance. But, I have to tell you that I believe you about as much as I believe the moon is made of green cheese.

Take your high and holy road. I will just tell you that I am but a worm and will take violent actions in such a senario as I presented to you.

I will bow out of this conversation since you first accused me of being impolite to you, accused me of not considering the will of God since I used the word "I" twice in a post, accused me of being vulgar with your wife.

Therefore, I have no need in being involved in this, what I consider to be a very hypocritical conversation. I do not pretend to be so holy. I will take up arms when it is needed.

This is the end of my involvment in this DUMB conversation.

God bless you, is my sincere desire for you and your family.

God bless you Brother Strange.

I told you true stories of how I experienced Jesus take care of both my safety and other people's. I listed many scriptures that testify of how a believer in Jesus should respond. I am sorry you cannot believe Jesus and His Word for this. It is very liberating to trust Him for ALL things.

My experience is that men who have no reasonable evidence, seldom accuse another man of lying unless they have something they want to cover up. Such tactic is usually nothing more than a maneuver to poison the well of an information source whose testimony will harm an indefinable position. So your calling me a liar is based on what evidence…?

I will say that the most disheartening thing about our discussion is that you refuse to offer any biblical support for your stance. But in all things I say, "Sola scriptura" (Scripture alone) is the only way to verify biblical Truth. "Prima scriptura" is based on improving the Bible by using other sources, and "Sola Verbum Dei," which the Catholics use, says the Word of God is partly Scripture and partly tradition. Neither of these are the way to determine biblical Truth or true faith in Jesus Christ. But I think with you offering no scripture it is plain to see that you do not agree with Sola Scriptura in this discussion. Too bad.

[Felicity]

All I have to say is .........

































Nothing. Hehehe.