Demonic Spirits and the Believer

[mfblume]

The best principle to show this is the TEMPLE, seeing as we are temples of the Holy Ghost. God would have smitten Phinehas and Hophni had they entered the holiest. But they were in the outer court and holy place committing sin.

Spirit, soul and body.
Holiest, holy place and outer court.

Acts 2:38 is not a cure-all.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No more than any scripture says Christians can have or not have cancer.

Okay, thank you.

So then it is established there are no scriptures showing that regenerated children of God can have demons that need to be cast out of them.

Good. Now that we have seen the doctrine that children of God can have demons has absolutely no scriptural basis, I shall now prove that children of God not only do not have demons, but cannot have demons.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Children of God have overcome 'them', that is, every spirit that is not of God, the spirit of antichrist, and whatever is in the world. Because God is in His children, and God is greater than he that is in the world. Notice, the one whom God is greater than, is 'in the world', not in the children of God.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

When a person has faith in Christ, as enters the new covenant, they have overcome the world. That includes all the powers of the world. They have overcome the world. They are not overcome by the world or by the spirits in the world.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Concerning those who are born of God it says 'that wicked one toucheth him not.'

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Christians have been (past tense) delivered from the power of darkness. If a person has not been delivered from the power of darkness, they are not a Christian.

Mar 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

The Christian is indwelled by God Almighty. No demon can enter the Lord's house EXCEPT HE FIRST BIND the 'strong man' of the house - which would be Christ. To suggest that a demon can somehow bind Christ, and spoil his goods (plunder the believer) is blasphemous. If then a demon has entered in, and spoiled the individual, there must not have been a strong man in the house - meaning, the individual was not a Christian, indwelled by the living all-victorious Christ.

There are many who think they are Christians, who are not. I shouldn't need to produce any scripture evidence on this point, for who denies that false professors of religion are an impossibility?

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

When Jesus cleans a person, they are cleansed 'from all' their filthiness, or uncleanness. Thus, they no longer have any 'unclean spirit' in them. They are cleansed altogether. Also, note that people are cleansed from 'all your idols'. Paul taught that the idols of the gentiles are demons. So technically, God promised to cleanse us from all our demons...

Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat_23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees because their religion produced people who outwardly appear clean but who remain unclean inside. Jesus taught the opposite is the will of God - that people were to be made clean inside first, and then that cleansing would make it's way outside to the surface. It is an astonishing thing to assert that in Christ's religion, the principle of Pharisaism would be operative, and contrary to the principle of true religion He Himself espoused! What? Jesus is going to make people outwardly clean first (outward shows or displays of religion) while leaving them unclean inside, by allowing the unclean spirit to remain in them? Preposterous! Christ's religion is one where the inside - the heart of man - is CLEANSED FIRST. If a person has not been cleansed inside, they haven't experienced genuine religion.

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

His disciples were washed, and therefore 'clean every whit'. The one who was not clean was the one filled with the devil, Judas, of whom Christ said he WAS a devil. One is either clean - or not. One cannot be both. To suggest a cleansed person, can nevertheless have an unclean spirit, or have a demon, is to deny Christ's words.

Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The word 'common' is koinou, and means defiled. Whatever God has cleansed, we are forbidden to claim is defiled. Peter later explained this vision referred not to food, but to men. If God has cleansed a man, the man is NOT DEFILED, not 'koinou'. Therefore, the man cannot 'have a demon' or unclean spirit, for such would certainly mean the man was 'unclean' or DEFILED. And Christians, who have in fact experienced the grace of God, have been CLEANSED ('every whit', in fact).

In every occurrence in Scripture of a demon, unclean spirit, or 'devil', the individual had to have the demon cast out. And in each of those cases the individual was 'possessed' by the demon or unclean spirit. And in each of those cases the individual acted in ways that today would be called 'mentally ill' (foaming at the mouth, screaming, writhing, causing self harm, etc) or which would indicate occult involvement (having a 'familiar spirit', for example). NOT ONCE is a Christian, born again person, represented as having a demon or unclean spirit. EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM facing Christians in the New Testament is represented as being resolved with REPENTANCE and submission to the truth, or else is a disease needing healing. The only WARNINGS to Christians about being controlled by the devil or demons or unclean spirits are warnings about being DECEIVED in their minds and 'seduced' as Eve was seduced - and Eve was not 'indwelt by a demon' in any sense.

There is no doubt demonic influences can attack Christians, wage war against them, seduce them, deceive them, and even cause physical harm to them.

But there simply is NO REASON to suggest demons can 'be inside' Christians, or that Christians can be 'demonised' or possessed or 'have' demons. There is not one scripture which says so. Not one scripture which suggests so. Not one scripture which even allows for such a concept. There are, instead, numerous scriptures which assert the opposite, and which do not allow for the possibility of a Christian 'having a demon'.

If a Christian backslides and falls so far as become demonised, they are not Christians except perhaps in name only. And the 'latter end' is 'worse than the former' for such persons - meaning they are currently in a condition worse than they were before they ever became a Christian.

The doctrine that Christians need demons 'cast out of them' is not found in the Bible, and therefore does not qualify as a Bible doctrine. It has in fact been admitted on this thread that it is not taught in the Bible, there are no 'proof texts' for it. It is merely an unsubstantiated interpretation - exactly like the trinity doctrine, come to think of it.

We should not teach what the Bible does not, in fact, teach. We are 'adding to the word' given to us by God when we do such things.

'What about Christians who had demons cast out of them?' Put it right there in the same bucket as gold dust, divine dental work, stigmata, and the rest of charismania's offerings. There are testimonies for anything, from bleeding icons and weeping statues of Mary to Sasquatch videos and little green men from outer space. I know a person who testified that when they were baptised in Jesus name they knew it took their sins away because they felt it happen, yet they said they had absolutely no faith or belief in Jesus Christ at the time. I have seen Jesus' face in a burnt homemade tortilla in southwest Texas (has drawn several million pilgrims over the years, if I am not mistaken). I know people who testify to speaking in tongues and being graciously and powerfully blessed while praying the Rosary and praying to Mary. I can bring forth people who will testify to being healed of diseases by the power of channelled alien entities and the effects of high ceremonial magick.

Experience only means something happened. Truth is determined by scripture, however, and all experiences are to be judged by scripture - not the other way around.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Okay, thank you.

So then it is established there are no scriptures showing that regenerated children of God can have demons that need to be cast out of them.

The principle of the chance is there. You have to show how the principle I claim is not valid.

Good. Now that we have seen the doctrine that children of God can have demons has absolutely no scriptural basis,

Sorry, the principles about it are there.

I shall now prove that children of God not only do not have demons, but cannot have demons.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

If a person is following God as they should, amen. But we both know that is not true for all believers .

Children of God have overcome 'them', that is, every spirit that is not of God, the spirit of antichrist, and whatever is in the world. Because God is in His children, and God is greater than he that is in the world. Notice, the one whom God is greater than, is 'in the world', not in the children of God.

I know many believers who dabble in sin and are not overcomes.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

And that faith can be weakened and abandoned too much. The lukewarm.

When a person has faith in Christ, as enters the new covenant, they have overcome the world. That includes all the powers of the world. They have overcome the world. They are not overcome by the world or by the spirits in the world.

And they can dabble and wander in the world somewhat.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Concerning those who are born of God it says 'that wicked one toucheth him not.'

So long as the believer lives right, yes.

[quote]
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [/quote

Amen, and many a believer has gone a little too close back to the world.

Christ does not make a believer's mind stay on good things. Spirits tempt and the believer must resist and abide in Christ. However, that does not always happen, since there are believers who simply are disobedient/

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

All these verses you cite have the same responsibility on the believer TO REMAIN in Christ by walking after Him. And that is not always the case.

When Jesus cleans a person, they are cleansed 'from all' their filthiness, or uncleanness. Thus, they no longer have any 'unclean spirit' in them. They are cleansed altogether. Also, note that people are cleansed from 'all your idols'. Paul taught that the idols of the gentiles are demons. So technically, God promised to cleanse us from all our demons...

And the person can go back toward the filth. And God's Spirit is longsuffering.

Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat_23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees because their religion produced people who outwardly appear clean but who remain unclean inside. Jesus taught the opposite is the will of God - that people were to be made clean inside first, and then that cleansing would make it's way outside to the surface. It is an astonishing thing to assert that in Christ's religion, the principle of Pharisaism would be operative, and contrary to the principle of true religion He Himself espoused! What? Jesus is going to make people outwardly clean first (outward shows or displays of religion) while leaving them unclean inside, by allowing the unclean spirit to remain in them? Preposterous!

That is another distortion of what we're saying. Christ cleans but He does not make someone stay clean. They have to maintain that holiness, and many examples of people who don't are easy to find.

[quote]Christ's religion is one where the inside - the[quote]

So? I agree. Nothing you're saying says a person cannot taint themselves with uncleanness after being cleansed.

heart of man - is CLEANSED FIRST. If a person has not been cleansed inside, they haven't experienced genuine religion.

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

His disciples were washed, and therefore 'clean every whit'. The one who was not clean was the one filled with the devil, Judas, of whom Christ said he WAS a devil. One is either clean - or not. One cannot be both. To suggest a cleansed person, can nevertheless have an unclean spirit, or have a demon, is to deny Christ's words.

A cleansed person can become dirty again.

Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The word 'common' is koinou, and means defiled. Whatever God has cleansed, we are forbidden to claim is defiled. Peter later explained this vision referred not to food, but to men. If God has cleansed a man, the man is NOT DEFILED, not 'koinou'. Therefore, the man cannot 'have a demon' or unclean spirit, for such would certainly mean the man was 'unclean' or DEFILED. And Christians, who have in fact experienced the grace of God, have been CLEANSED ('every whit', in fact).

You are again repeatedly ignoring the simple fact that after being cleansed believers can go to the dirt again, and God does not necessarily leave right away when that happens.

In every occurrence in Scripture of a demon, unclean spirit, or 'devil', the individual had to have the demon cast out. And in each of those cases the individual was 'possessed' by the demon or unclean spirit. And in each of those cases the individual acted in ways that today would be called 'mentally ill' (foaming at the mouth, screaming, writhing, causing self harm, etc) or which would indicate occult involvement (having a 'familiar spirit', for example). NOT ONCE is a Christian, born again person, represented as having a demon or unclean spirit. EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM facing Christians in the New Testament is represented as being resolved with REPENTANCE and submission to the truth, or else is a disease needing healing. The only WARNINGS to Christians about being controlled by the devil or demons or unclean spirits are warnings about being DECEIVED in their minds and 'seduced' as Eve was seduced - and Eve was not 'indwelt by a demon' in any sense.

Satan had such a hold on Ananias and Sapphira that satan filled his heart instead of the things of God filling his heart. He was a believer. To say he was not Spirit filled is nonsense. The early church did not preach this modern "take or leave Spirit baptism" concept.

There is no doubt demonic influences can attack Christians, wage war against them, seduce them, deceive them, and even cause physical harm to them.

But there simply is NO REASON to suggest demons can 'be inside' Christians, or that Christians can be 'demonised' or possessed or 'have' demons. There is not one scripture which says so. Not one scripture which suggests so. Not one scripture which even allows for such a concept. There are, instead, numerous scriptures which assert the opposite, and which do not allow for the possibility of a Christian 'having a demon'.

The temple principle is clear. And Paul told Spirit filled believers to remain filled with the Spirit. And unless we understand spirit, soula nd body is sounds like we're one room and nothing can get in. But we are not. Man is more complex than that.

If a Christian backslides and falls so far as become demonised, they are not Christians except perhaps in name only. And the 'latter end' is 'worse than the former' for such persons - meaning they are currently in a condition worse than they were before they ever became a Christian.

Jesus DID NOT say the principle of the devil cast out and coming back can apply to believers if they backslid, as though everyone who gets saved had devils leave their lives. He was speaking strictly about devils being cast out and THEN the devils coming back. Not Christians getting saved and then inhabited by devils.

The doctrine that Christians need demons 'cast out of them' is not found in the Bible,

It is a possibility that can and does happen.

and therefore does not qualify as a Bible doctrine. It has in fact been admitted on this thread that it is not taught in the Bible, there are no 'proof texts' for it. It is merely an unsubstantiated interpretation - exactly like the trinity doctrine, come to think of it.

The principle is there.

We should not teach what the Bible does not, in fact, teach. We are 'adding to the word' given to us by God when we do such things.

the bible said to cast the things out. It did not say to hold a meeting and spend three determining if a person has God's Spirit or not. Deal with it if it happens. And I've seen it and while others might hold their councils to analyze the picture, I'm seeing people helped.

'What about Christians who had demons cast out of them?' Put it right there in the same bucket as gold dust, divine dental work, stigmata, and the rest of charismania's offerings. There are testimonies for anything, from bleeding icons and weeping statues of Mary to Sasquatch videos and little green men from outer space. I know a person who testified that when they were baptised in Jesus name they knew it took their sins away because they felt it happen, yet they said they had absolutely no faith or belief in Jesus Christ at the time. I have seen Jesus' face in a burnt homemade tortilla in southwest Texas (has drawn several million pilgrims over the years, if I am not mistaken). I know people who testify to speaking in tongues and being graciously and powerfully blessed while praying the Rosary and praying to Mary. I can bring forth people who will testify to being healed of diseases by the power of channelled alien entities and the effects of high ceremonial magick.

Experience only means something happened. Truth is determined by scripture, however, and all experiences are to be judged by scripture - not the other way around.

Keep religion with all it's pat answers, and I will keep seeing believers get deliverance with remarkable results! Lives are visibly and notably changed. It's like the baptists saying tongues are of the devil. Too late telling us that. And too late telling me about christians and no possibility of devils. Saw it far too much.

We are temples, and many wicked things happened in the temple of God in the bible. And you are distorting my words. I said there's no more than scriptures saying Christians can have cancer. You totally ignored that note.

[mfblume]

To woodenly ask for specific examples is like looking to find a scripture that says Spirit-baptized Christians can be healed of blindness and find there are no cases of blind Christians in the bible who were healed. Some could easily say Christians cannot get blind.

Jesus cast the devil out of the Syrophoenician's daughter. He called this deliverance "the children's bread." Deliverance is for believers. Not unbelievers.

The Holy Ghost enters the human spirit, not the soul or body. That which is born of Spirit is spirit. No demon can enter a christian's spirit. But the soul or body, yes, unless that person is FILLED with the Spirit which sees it influence the soul and body.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

To woodenly ask for specific examples is like looking to find a scripture that says Spirit-baptized Christians can be healed of blindness and find there are no cases of blind Christians in the bible who were healed. Some could easily say Christians cannot get blind.

Jesus cast the devil out of the Syrophoenician's daughter. He called this deliverance "the children's bread." Deliverance is for believers. Not unbelievers.

The Holy Ghost enters the human spirit, not the soul or body. That which is born of Spirit is spirit. No demon can enter a christian's spirit. But the soul or body, yes, unless that person is FILLED with the Spirit which sees it influence the soul and body.

You speak of a doctrine I came across called infestation. The idea behind it is like how a house can become invested with a pest. If the conditions are right, which is to say, they are wrong, an unwanted, uninvited, but no less welcome pest can come in and make its home. This is how bed bugs, roaches, mice, and etc. come in. No one actually wants them there, or intentionally brings them into the home, but the conditions which allow for their infestation, if present in the home, give them a chance to infest.

The idea, then, is the same with a believer. A believer who has received the Holy Spirit may be living in such a manner as to allow for conditions to be right for him or her to be infested. It may be unintentional, the spirit or spirits may not be wanted or invited in, but the living conditions present, allow for infestation.

The idea then goes that this/these spirit/s infest the flesh or even possibly the soul of the wayward believer, even if the Holy Spirit is still present in the human spirit of the believer.

The article I first read this at can be found here:

http://www.sott.net/article/151935-A...nic-Possession

I don't make a claim on the veracity of the idea of infestation. I'm just adding information to the discussion.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

You speak of a doctrine I came across called infestation. The idea behind it is like how a house can become invested with a pest. If the conditions are right, which is to say, they are wrong, an unwanted, uninvited, but no less welcome pest can come in and make its home. This is how bed bugs, roaches, mice, and etc. come in. No one actually wants them there, or intentionally brings them into the home, but the conditions which allow for their infestation, if present in the home, give them a chance to infest.

The idea, then, is the same with a believer. A believer who has received the Holy Spirit may be living in such a manner as to allow for conditions to be right for him or her to be infested. It may be unintentional, the spirit or spirits may not be wanted or invited in, but the living conditions present, allow for infestation.

The idea then goes that this/these spirit/s infest the flesh or even possibly the soul of the wayward believer, even if the Holy Spirit is still present in the human spirit of the believer.

The article I first read this at can be found here:

http://www.sott.net/article/151935-A...nic-Possession

I don't make a claim on the veracity of the idea of infestation. I'm just adding information to the discussion.

Thanks for the input. Interesting title to the concept. But quite apt.

[mfblume]

The issue reminds me of how some baptists think speaking in tongues is of the Devil. They have a faulty concept of the scriptures they use to say that. The word is true. But we can misunderstand the word and thereby reject something that is actually true. A person's theology is off in such a case.

[mfblume]

Esaias,

Here is a scripture that indicates christinas can possess a devil inside them if they do not serve God properly.

Eph 4:25-27 KJV Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. (26) Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: (27) Neither give place to the devil.

PLACE is the Greek term TOPOS. It means OCCUPANCY.

It's the same word translated as ROOM as follows:

Luk 2:7 KJV And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

STRONG'S
:top'-os
Apparently a primary word; a spot (generally in space, but limited by occupancy;

[votivesoul]

Topos is the root for topography or the study of and relationship between locations, especially on a map.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Topos is the root for topography or the study of and relationship between locations, especially on a map.