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Old 12-15-2017, 01:34 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: 2 Thess 2

Busy dealing with a 911 address change, will respond later.
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Old 12-15-2017, 06:23 PM
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Search in this forum for a post I made about Victorinus.
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:09 PM
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Re: 2 Thess 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Search in this forum for a post I made about Victorinus.
Why?
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Old 12-25-2017, 06:24 PM
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Re: 2 Thess 2

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Why?
Because he asked politely?
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Old 12-16-2017, 12:37 AM
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Re: 2 Thess 2

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Search in this forum for a post I made about Victorinus.
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...78&postcount=8
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Old 12-16-2017, 06:47 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: 2 Thess 2

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There is no way a power mad heathen king's military tents in conquered Jerusalem equate to "the temple (naos) of God". Especially when "the temple (naos) of God" is a special phrase used by Paul exclusively for the church
So this word can ONLY be used for the Church? Its definition by Strongs is "to dwell".

a fane
shrine
temple

Nothing about the word makes it exclusive to the Church.

Mark 14:58

58We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Mark 15:29

29And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, 30Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

Mark 15:38

38And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Luke 1:9

9According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

Temple in these 4 verses is the same as Paul used in 2 Thess 2:4. There are more verses where the word is not used for the Church but this should suffice.

So the word temple as used both by Jesus and Paul and others means "to dwell".

Its a dwelling place. In context a dwelling place for God. The man of sin sits in the temple of God SHEWING HIMSELF....THAT...HE...IS GOD.
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Old 12-16-2017, 08:15 AM
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Re: 2 Thess 2

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So this word can ONLY be used for the Church?
It is ONLY used by Paul for the church. How a writer uses a word is part of how we understand what the writer means. This is basic Bible 101 stuff.
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Old 12-16-2017, 08:41 AM
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Re: 2 Thess 2

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Its a dwelling place. In context a dwelling place for God. The man of sin sits in the temple of God SHEWING HIMSELF....THAT...HE...IS GOD.
The man of sin sits in the temple of God. Whatever he sits in is God's temple FIRST, then he sits in it claiming the position of God.

You are proposing a guy pitches a tent for himself, and somehow it becomes God's temple when this man dwells in it, but not really God's temple, just that guy's temple, who claims to be God.

It's the temple of God according to Paul. Like I said, there is no way a man can build a temple to himself and it actually be God's temple.
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Old 12-16-2017, 07:09 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: 2 Thess 2

Quote:
Daniel never said "or never will be again", you are inserting words that do not exist. Daniel said this:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

You are correct. In my haste I wrote a quick paraphrase instead of copying the verse.

The context of Daniel 12 certainly seems IMO to be the same as in Matt 24.

Dan 12:1-4

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Matt 24 15:


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Note that what Jesus is referring to is supposed to be understood by reading Daniel the prophet. If Antiochus fulfilled this Jesus made a mistake. Jesus puts it in THE FUTURE where Antiochus was hundreds of years in THE PAST.

Jesus continues:

Verses 29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is when the resurrection happens, at the coming of Jesus to gather the saints.

Paul describes it the same way.

Jesus comes and gathers together his people.

2 Thess 2:1-2

These are all pointing to the time of the resurrection.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 12-16-2017 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 12-16-2017, 07:19 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: 2 Thess 2

Quote:
You begin with an error. Jesus is not describing the apostasy or falling away. He is describing division and warfare and betrayal. Apostasy is when people fall away from apostolic truth and backslide from the gospel. As I already showed, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John all taught there would be a falling away from the faith that would soon begin (John said it was already happening). They explain the apostasy as people within the church departing from the original faith. Jesus is not describing a falling away in the passage you quoted. He is speaking about violence and division in the world against the saints. Worldlings persecuting the saints is not the "falling away".
If Christians turn from Jesus its known as falling away. It is not limited to being deceived.

MATT 24:9-12

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

So these people do not "fall away"?
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