UPCI History, Truth ?????????

[tbpew]

sam,
you wrote:

It is my understanding that in the early NT church, salvation was followed by water baptism. It is my understanding that the name of Jesus was mentioed in that water baptism. It is my understanding that Christians in the early NT curch were encouraged to receive the HGB. In my understanding, that would be the norm for today but because of: what we have been taught; our understanding of the Scriptures; and our own sincerety and personal commitment, we may fall short of the NT norm.

How do you conclude that folks were SAVED (experienced salvation).
In the 16th post of this thread you included your definition/usage of the the word as being:

Salvation means that a person is no longer lost and bound for Hell.

You indicate that you are able to get that understanding from what you see in scriptures about the early NT church. Please share how you get that witness/conclusion from the scriptural record.

I am curious if you are similarly confident in an Eternal Security once this same individual

...repents or makes a personal commitment to Jesus Christ" (excerpt from 'Sam's post, no.16 in this thread)

My perspective has always been "new birth" is what results from our formerly stoney heart being replaced with a heart of flesh when God's spirit makes its abode there. Without the Spirit of Christ (God's anointing) we are none of his.

The definitiveness of the Romans 8:9 witness concerning our place in God is sobering. Could you please share how a one-stepper sees a scriptural witness to give confidence to 'uncouple' the receipt of the Holy Ghost from having the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you.

I have always understood birth as a starting point not a finishing line. Salvation is God's formative process that culminates with a "completed race". Paul was mindful of continuing lest, after preaching to others, he himself be a castaway.

The witness of a need for continuance is pretty vast, a few are:
The witnesses of those who were delivered from Pharoh yet died in the wilderness because of unbelief.
The witness of Demas
The witness of Romans 11:20-21 exhortation concerning the wild branches being susceptible as were the natural branches
The sober counsels for the condition of the churches at Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyratia, Laodecia

So again, please share how you see "It is my understanding that in the early NT church, salvation was followed by water baptism"

[tbpew]

sam,
you wrote:

It is my understanding that in the early NT church, salvation was followed by water baptism. It is my understanding that the name of Jesus was mentioed in that water baptism. It is my understanding that Christians in the early NT curch were encouraged to receive the HGB. In my understanding, that would be the norm for today but because of: what we have been taught; our understanding of the Scriptures; and our own sincerety and personal commitment, we may fall short of the NT norm.

How do you conclude that folks were SAVED (experienced salvation).
In the 16th post of this thread you included your definition/usage of the the word as being:

Salvation means that a person is no longer lost and bound for Hell.

You indicate that you are able to get that understanding from what you see in scriptures about the early NT church. Please share how you get that witness/conclusion from the scriptural record.

I am curious if you are similarly confident in an Eternal Security once this same individual

...repents or makes a personal commitment to Jesus Christ" (excerpt from 'Sam's post, no.16 in this thread)

My perspective has always been "new birth" is what results from our formerly stoney heart being replaced with a heart of flesh when God's spirit makes its abode there. Without the Spirit of Christ (God's anointing) we are none of his.

The definitiveness of the Romans 8:9 witness concerning our place in God is sobering. Could you please share how a one-stepper sees a scriptural witness to give confidence to 'uncouple' the receipt of the Holy Ghost from having the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you.

I have always understood birth as a starting point not a finishing line. Salvation is God's formative process that culminates with a "completed race". Paul was mindful of continuing lest, after preaching to others, he himself be a castaway.

The witness of a need for continuance is pretty vast, a few are:
The witnesses of those who were delivered from Pharoh yet died in the wilderness because of unbelief.
The witness of Demas
The witness of Romans 11:20-21 exhortation concerning the wild branches being susceptible as were the natural branches
The sober counsels for the condition of the churches at Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyratia, Laodecia

So again, please share how you see "It is my understanding that in the early NT church, salvation was followed by water baptism".

Thank you Brother Sam (Jim Ellis)

The information you provided is very helpful!

I wish the UPCI online directory would distinquish the one steppers from the three steppers.

A friend from China came to the USA as a visiting scholar. I gave him the info for a UPCI church close to him. It would be great to know if the pastor is a one stepper or a three stepper. If one were to ask an UPCI pastor, are you a one stepper or a three stepper? You probably would not get an answer. I would think that if he said one way or another he would loose members.


If anyone knows of a listing of one steppers and three steppers within the UPCI, please let me know. Thanks.


In Jesus,
Brother Bruce

Originally Posted by Bruce Klein

Thank you Brother Sam (Jim Ellis)

The information you provided is very helpful!

I wish the UPCI online directory would distinquish the one steppers from the three steppers.

A friend from China came to the USA as a visiting scholar. I gave him the info for a UPCI church close to him. It would be great to know if the pastor is a one stepper or a three stepper. If one were to ask an UPCI pastor, are you a one stepper or a three stepper? You probably would not get an answer. I would think that if he said one way or another he would loose members.


If anyone knows of a listing of one steppers and three steppers within the UPCI, please let me know. Thanks.


In Jesus,
Brother Bruce

This is really what the body of Christ needs; more division.

[Trouvere]

Originally Posted by Bruce Klein

Thank you Brother Sam (Jim Ellis)

The information you provided is very helpful!

I wish the UPCI online directory would distinquish the one steppers from the three steppers.

A friend from China came to the USA as a visiting scholar. I gave him the info for a UPCI church close to him. It would be great to know if the pastor is a one stepper or a three stepper. If one were to ask an UPCI pastor, are you a one stepper or a three stepper? You probably would not get an answer. I would think that if he said one way or another he would loose members.


If anyone knows of a listing of one steppers and three steppers within the UPCI, please let me know. Thanks.


In Jesus,
Brother Bruce

Brother Klein what are you talking about? One stepper? Three Steppers?
It makes no sense to me.
Do you mean those who don't think Jesus Name Baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost is salvational? would those be one steppers or three steppers?
Do you mean those that believe the false doctrine of second work of grace?

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Do you mean those who don't think Jesus Name Baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost is salvational? would those be one steppers or three steppers?

Hello Trouvere,

How are you?

The answer to your question is 'yes'

I taught my Chinese friend when we were with him in China that Christians are only those who have been water baptized in the name of Jesus and have the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. For someone to tell him that is just Bruce's interpretation of the Holy Bible would not be right. I experienced an attack by a one stepper pastor here in my area when we first returned from China. The leadership of the church were trained at Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN. When a pastor was finished speaking he opened for questions. His plan of salvation was confusing to me, so I asked is it true a person must be water baptized in the name of Jesus and have the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues to be a Christian? He blew-up at me. Three ladies of the church came to my defense saying I wasn't trying to cause a problem. I DON'T want my Chinese friend to go to an Apostolic one stepper church to be attacked like I was!

I have problems thinking that Billy Graham is going to heaven, because he has said the sinner's prayer or made Jesus his God or repented. Billy Graham is a great man! I worked for his ministry in a paid position in Minneapolis, MN, his headquarters. No matter how great he is doesn't he still need to follow John 3:5, Acts 2:38, etc.

I could have stayed as a Baptist pastor with my parsonage, fancy church building, salary, etc. Why obey the Holy Bible?

Obviously, I am the one who is confused. I had thought that an Apostolic was a three stepper. So, the true definition of an Apostolic is anyone who wants to be an Apostolic all doctrines accepted? So, everyone in Christendom is going to heaven?

I have acquired the book Christianity without the Cross, A History of Salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism, by Thomas A. Fudge, 394 pages, ISBN 1-58112-584-4. This book is a defense for the one steppers. It explains the one steppers struggle against the three steppers within the UPCI. It was given to my by Brother Bernie Wade, a one stepper, ex UPCI pastor of many years.

Should I direct my Chinese friend to a Charismatic church, to be on the safe side? Just kidding!

I do know the answers. I do know how to direct my friend. I believe in the Spirit the pastor of the UPCI church is a three stepper, but what if I am wrong?

Thanks for listening! It reminds me of old times!


In Jesus,
Brother Bruce
http://brobruce.blogspot.com/

[Trouvere]

Brother Klein,
I feel that to be saved the bible teaches we must be living a repented life,
baptised in Jesus Name and filled with the Holy Ghost.No resurrection spirit means simply that...no resurrection.I agree.I have not gotten into much indepth conversation with those who feel otherwise.I have only seen it posted on the web.Thanks for old times.lol...lv sis.c

[Scott Hutchinson]

He seems to me this fellow is bitter, and just wants to spew venom at folks.
Bitterness is the acid that destroys it's own container.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

He seems to me this fellow is bitter, and just wants to spew venom at folks.
Bitterness is the acid that destroys it's own container.

Which fellow, Bro. Scott!

Blessings,

Falla39

Hello Brother Scott,

How are you?

I have emailed back and forth with Brother John Sims. He is ex UPCI.

He has a list of requirements to be a Christian. Is he right or wrong? He is difficult to understand. Hopefully, Jesus' grace and mercy becomes a part of our salvation.

He is aggressive. He is aggressive with me.

Is he simply trying to contend for the faith with many attacking him? So, he has become aggressive?

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 1:3

The Holy Spirit had Paul write against Peter in Galatians. Some would say that is politically incorrect. We must speak and write as the Holy Spirit leads to be Biblically correct.

Is the following Brother Sims without the love?
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" Ephesians 4:11-15

We need to do all things in 'love'.

Hopefully, my writings help the body of Christ. Judging by the personal Hotmail emails and phone calls most Apostolics agree with what I write. They just don't post their thoughts.

I am teaching/preaching every Sunday at an Apostolic church in place of the pastor preaching. This pastor has left this man-made tradition. The pastor was trained in Canton, OH by Brother Joe Ellis's (UPCI) Purpose Institute. The pastor recognizes my anointing. My point is I must teach the church's members in love following the leading of the Holy Spirit. What does the Holy Spirit consider important in a church's meetings? Healing! Jesus' people need healing from emotional and physical attacks from the enemy. They get beat-up by the enemy all week; they come to the meeting needing to be healed. Sunday mornings is not my time to correct doctrines.

Jesus sends people to correct us. I wish someone besides my wife would have stood-up to tell me I wasn't called to be a pastor. Sure, our wives are more right than we want to accept! Smile.

Brother Scott, thank you for praying for me, my wife and our boys.


In Jesus,
Brother Bruce
http://brobruce.blogspot.com/