Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Thats the message that these MULTI-BIBLE ministers have implied to our generation...that the Bible is NOT the unadulterated word of God.

They all seem to contradict each other, therefore, cancelling them ALL out!

What makes you believe the KJV is more accurate than the Geneva bible Or Tyndale?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

....

Is that really the best argument you can come up with? Seriously?



So the the KJV is contradicting itself saying God can't be tempted but you come alone and say he can?



You should have given the link to that dictionary to see what you left out

1175-1225; Middle English < Latin temptāre to probe, feel, test, tempt
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tempt

that's the problem with reading a bible translated into an outdated language


right PROVE. Same word is translated TEMPT in the KJV in other verses.

And once again the word Prove, before Modern English, meant TEST

1125-75; Middle English proven < Old French prover < Latin probāre to try, test, prove, approve, derivative of probus good.

But in our modern english Proving someone is not TEMPTING someone to sin
ROFL...so you are a KJVO and a conspiracy theorist too?

The KJV is not translated into an "outdated language". The problrm is English has been degraded to the point that many modern English speakers can only barely understand their own native tongue. While I do not claim the KJV is PERFECT it is better than any modern translation I've seen, on several levels:

1. The superiority of the "textus receptus" over the ever-changing hybrid minority texts of Westcott-Hort or Nestle-Aland.

2. Its retention of gender and person/number specific pronouns not found in modern colloquial English.

3. A beauty and reverence and depth in phraseology not found in ANY English version before or since. There is a reason the KJV (and Shakespeare) occupy the places they do in the history of English literature. We should be striving upward not downward. He who controls the language controls thought and idea. Dumbed down language leads to dumbed down thinking, something clearly evident in society today.

4. The psalms especially, but other texts as well, as found in the KJV, are more suitable for the genuinely American (and Scot-Welsh-English) preaching and singing styles which are almost extinct these days. The text is written in a way that can be preached and sung/chanted powerfully and expressively in English which stylistic quality is generally lacking in other English translations.

5. Actual familiarity with and use and STUDY of the KJV increases literacy more so than other English versions, generally speaking. I have witnessed it first hand as a homeschooling parent and as a neighbor to public school kids who have been influenced by my own kids.

The KJV is simply put the OVERALL most beautiful, most expressive, most reverent, most powerful English translation yet, and still unsurpassed. University level English majors and hick country preachers and all in between have been blessed by it, love it, use it, and recommend it. As do I.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. That determines the narrowed down version of the varied definitions available. But definition cannot be disregarded. The story of Herod implies nothing about Easter instead of passover.

Jerusalem was under Passover Law.

Acts 12:3-4 KJV And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) (4) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Since unleavened bread was part of Passover, and just mentioned in verse 11 before pascha was referred to, We know that the reference to the jewish feast in verse 11 is what verse 12 referred to with PASCHA. Since they days of unleavened bread were occurring when Herod sought to take Peter, and since Unleavened bread and firstfruits were all part of the PASSOVER feast, and because civil works could not occur during passover by HEBREW LAW, then Herod had to wait til after PASSOVER to deal with Peter.

Verse 11'as use of unleavened bread prove that pascha is passover.

Mike,

Leveticus 23:5-6 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Unless I am reading this wrong the Lord's passover happens before the feast of unleavened bread. (In other words passover is not the same thing as the feast of unleavened bread)

The context in Acts where pascha is translated as easter is a context where passover already happened and they were on into the days of unleavened bread which levitcus seems to show is after passover.

Since peter was going to be held till a certain pascha which was after the days of unleavened bread I think the translators must of reasoned that context showed that pascha could not have meant passover here since passover would have already occured before the days of unleavened bread.

[Aquila]

As it relates to the topic of the thread, I think it is important to define the word "person".

I believe a "person" to be a self-conscious reality, personality, or "self" that is able to be distinguished from another self-conscious reality, personality, or "self" through the expression of an "I/thou" relationship. Therefore, when Jesus speaks of Himself in a manner that distinguishes His own self-conscious reality, personality, or self from the Father... He establishes His own distinct personhood.

Considering the limitations that Jesus speaks of (in comparison to His Father), I conclude that Christ's person is human with human limitations.

Considering the Epistles, I also conclude that the human person of Jesus, the Son of God, is fashioned in the express image of the Father's own person. Therefore, the human person, the Son of God, reflects the very image of the Father's own person. Therefore, even in Christ's humanity He is a reflection of the Father. As a result, the Father's own person is perfectly revealed in the human person of Jesus, as a man.

Now, I also believe that this human person (the man Jesus Christ) and the Father (God) exist in an inseparable union. They are one and exist in a state wherein their singleness of being is best described as being a mutual indwelling. As a result, each partakes in all that the other is. This allows us to be able to say that in Christ, God became a man. And that this man was also God.

[Sean]

Guys, I tried to make you see a certain post with a link, showing Easter as we see in the book of Acts was AFTER the days of unleavened bread(which was after the Passover).

You would not investigate it.

I know what is going on here now. You guys have ruthlessly and biasedly been attacking the validity of the KJV.

Nearly all of you do not believe that ANY translation of the Bible is exact truth...NONE are accurate. They are all corrupt. Some more than others.

You are formulating your theology from "fragments" of truth of all Bibles and trying to piece together your own truth with false translations, including your KJV.

I dont believe in that method. I believe in a "perfectly translated" Bible, or I would not even waste my time with a "corrupt", so-called word of God.

I thought I was debating words of a "perfect" Bible, but it cannot work with folks that have no perfect Bible.

I should have known better when I was getting barraged with other versions over the words used in the KJV.

Guys, in your quest to figure out the truth by piecing together scriptures from any translation you prefer, I suggest you get together and study the Received Text and invent your own Bible for Apostolics.

It would sell like hot cakes and you, with your Greek lexicons, would have the final say of what is the true Word of God for the Apostolics.

Seriously, if you dont have a TRUE, UNADULTERATED Bible in your possession, you then should do this.

I will NEVER use a corrupt Bible as a reference against another corrupt Bible.

2 wrongs will NEVER make a right!

Good luck in your quest to find the "true" meanings of the Received Text.(hopefully you choose to use it rather than the Minority Text)

[obriencp]

You honestly think that the KJV is without any errors? SMH.

If that's the case then we need to first help everyone in the world to learn "ye old english" before anyone can be truly taught the gospel.

[Sean]

If you dont want to use the Received Text to invent your perfect Bible, you can try using these to piece together your new Apostolic Bible, many of them are being used as reference these days by Apostolics......

Complete Bibles
Bible English variant Date Source Notes
American Standard Version Modern English 1901 Masoretic Text, Westcott and Hort 1881 and Tregelles 1857 This version is now in the public domain due to copyright expiration.
American King James Version Modern English 1999 Revision of the King James Version
Amplified Bible Modern English 1965 Revision of the American Standard Version
An American Translation Modern English 1935 Masoretic Text, various[which?] Greek texts.
ArtScroll Tanakh (Old Testament) Modern English 1996 Masoretic Text
An American Translation Modern English 1976 Masoretic Text, various[which?] Greek texts.
The Beloved and I: New Jubilees Version of the Sacred Scriptures in Verse Modern English 2005
Berkeley Version Modern English 1958
Bible in English Modern English 1949
The Bible in Living English Modern English 1972
Bishops' Bible Early Modern English 1568 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus
Catholic Public Domain Version Modern English 2009 Sixtus V and Clement VIII Latin Vulgate by Ronald L. Conte Jr., in the public domain
Children's King James Version Modern English 1962 Revision of the King James Version. by Jay P. Green
Christian Community Bible, English version Modern English 1986 Hebrew and Greek
Clear Word Bible Modern English 1994
Complete Jewish Bible Modern English 1998 Paraphrase of the Jewish Publication Society of America Version (Old Testament), and from Greek (New Testament) text.
Contemporary English Version Modern English 1995
Concordant Literal Version Modern English 1926. Rev. 1931, 1966 Restored Greek syntax. A concordance of every form of every Greek word was made and systematized and turned into English. The whole Greek vocabulary was analyzed and translated, using a standard English equivalent for each Greek element.
Coverdale Bible Early Modern English 1535 Masoretic Text, the Greek New Testament of Erasmus, Vulgate, and German and Swiss-German Bibles (Luther Bible, Zürich Bible and Leo Jud's Bible) First complete Bible printed in English (Early Modern English)
Dabhar Translation Modern English 2005 Masoretic Text, Codex Sinaiticus
Darby Bible Modern English 1890 Masoretic Text, various critical editions of the Greek text (i.a. Tregelles, Tischendorf, Westcott and Hort). This Bible version is now Public Domain due to copyright expiration.
Divine Name King James Bible[5] Early Modern English 2011 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus Authorized King James Version which restores the Divine Name, Jehovah to the original text in 6,972 places.
Douay–Rheims Bible Early Modern English 1582 (New Testament)
1609–1610 (Old Testament) Latin, Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. This work is now Public Domain.
Douay-Rheims Bible (Challoner Revision) Modern English 1752 Clementine Vulgate This Bible version is now Public Domain due to copyright expiration.
EasyEnglish Bible Modern English 2001 Wycliffe Associates (UK)
Easy-to-Read Version Modern English 1989 Textus Receptus, United Bible Society (UBS) Greek text, Nestle-Aland Text
Emphasized Bible Modern English 1902 Translated by Joseph Bryant Rotherham based on The New Testament in the Original Greek and Christian David Ginsburg's Massoretico-critical edition of the Hebrew Bible (1894) Uses various methods, such as "emphatic idiom" and special diacritical marks, to bring out nuances of the underlying Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts.
English Jubilee 2000 Bible Modern English 2000 Reina-Valera (1602 Edition)
English Standard Version Modern English 2001 Revision of the Revised Standard Version. (Westcott-Hort, Weiss, Tischendorf Greek texts)
Ferrar Fenton Bible Modern English 1853 Masoretic Text and the Westcott and Hort Greek text
Geneva Bible Early Modern English 1557 (New Testament)
1560 (complete Bible)

Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus First English Bible with whole of Old Testament translated direct from Hebrew texts
God's Word Modern English 1995
Good News Bible Modern English 1976 United Bible Society (UBS) Greek text Formerly known as Today's English Version
Great Bible Early Modern English 1539 Masoretic Text, Greek New Testament of Erasmus, the Vulgate, and the Luther Bible.
HalleluYah Scriptures English & Paleo Hebrew Names 2009 Masoretic, DSS, Majority Text, Aramaic Peshitta. Free Restored Name Scriptures
Hebraic Roots Version English & Hebrew Names 2004 Hebrew Masoretic Text, Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament sources. The Hebraic Roots Version Scriptures is a translation of the Tanakh/Old Testament from the Hebrew Masoretic Text. Revised from the public domain JPS 1917 edition, and placed together with a revised edition of the Hebrew Roots New Testament (based on Hebrew and Aramaic sources) each with useful footnotes, and an informative preface to the whole work.
Holman Christian Standard Bible Modern English 2004 Masoretic Text, Nestle-Aland Text.
The Inclusive Bible Modern English 2007 From the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek
International Standard Version Modern English 2011
Jerusalem Bible Modern English 1966 From the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, with influence from the French La Bible de Jérusalem.
Jewish Publication Society of America Version Tanakh (Old Testament) Modern English 1917 Masoretic Text The Old Testament translation is based on the Hebrew Masoretic text. It follows the edition of Seligman Baer except for the books of Exodus to Deuteronomy, which never appeared in Baer's edition. For those books, C. D. Ginsburg's Hebrew text was used. This Bible version is now Public Domain due to copyright expiration.
Judaica Press Tanakh (Old Testament). Modern English 1963 Masoretic Text
Julia E. Smith Parker Translation Modern English 1876 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus
King James 2000 Version Modern English 2000 Revision of the King James Version.
King James Easy Reading Version Modern English 2010 Revision of the King James Version. Textus Receptus. King's Word Press. GEM Publishing.[6]
King James Version Early Modern English 1611 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus, Tyndale 1526 NT, some Erasmus manuscripts, and Bezae 1598 TR. This Bible version is now Public Domain worldwide due to copyright expiration except in the United Kingdom due to crown letters patent until 2039.
King James II Version Modern English 1971 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus by Jay P. Green, Sr.
Knox's Translation of the Vulgate Modern English 1955 Vulgate, with influence from the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
Lamsa Bible Modern English 1933 Syriac Peshitta
A Literal Translation of the Bible Modern English 1985 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus (Estienne 1550) by Jay P. Green, Sr.
Leeser Bible, Tanakh (Old Testament) Modern English 1994 Masoretic Text

[Sean]

The Living Bible Modern English 1971 American Standard Version (paraphrase)
The Living Torah and The Living Nach. Tanakh (Old Testament) Modern English 1994 Masoretic Text
Matthew's Bible Early Modern English 1537 Masoretic Text, the Greek New Testament of Erasmus, the Vulgate, the Luther Bible, and a French version.[which?]
The Message Modern English 2002
Modern King James Version Modern English 1990 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus by Jay P. Green, Sr.
Modern Language Bible Modern English 1969 Also called "The New Berkeley Version"
Moffatt, New Translation Modern English 1926 Greek text of Hermann von Soden
Murdock Translation of the Western Peshitto Modern English 1852[7] Western Peshitto (or Peshito)[8] by Dr. James Murdock. The Western Peshitto "is virtually the same as the Eastern Peshitta, besides the addition of 2Peter, 2John, 3John, Jude and Revelation".[9]
New American Bible Modern English 1970
New American Standard Bible Modern English 1971 Masoretic Text, Nestle-Aland Text
New Century Version Modern English 1991
New English Bible Modern English 1970 Masoretic Text, Greek New Testament[disambiguation needed]
New English Translation (NET Bible) Modern English 2005 Masoretic Text, Nestle-Aland/United Bible Society Greek New Testament
New International Reader's Version Modern English 1998 New International Version (simplified syntax, but loss of conjunctions obscures meanings)
New International Version Inclusive Language Edition Modern English 1996 Revision of the New International Version.
New International Version Modern English 1978 Masoretic Text, Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (based on Westcott-Hort, Weiss and Tischendorf, 1862).
New Jerusalem Bible Modern English 1985 From the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, with influence from the French La Bible de Jérusalem.
New Jewish Publication Society of America Version. Tanakh (Old Testament) Modern English 1985 Masoretic Text
New King James Version Modern English 1982 Masoretic Text (Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, 1983), Textus Receptus
New Life Version Modern English 1986
New Living Translation Modern English 1996
New Revised Standard Version Modern English 1989 Revision of the Revised Standard Version.
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures Modern English 1950 (New Testament)
1960 (single volume complete Bible)
1984 (reference edition with footnotes)
2013 (revised)

Westcott and Hort's Greek New Testament, Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, Hebrew J documents, as well as various other families of Hebrew and Greek manuscripts
The Orthodox Study Bible Modern English 2008 Adds a new translation of the LXX to an existing translation of the NKJV in a single volume.
Quaker Bible Modern English 1764 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus
Recovery Version of the Bible Modern English 1985 Revision of the American Standard Version and Darby Bible.
Revised Version Modern English 1885 Revision of the King James Version, but with a critical New Testament text: Westcott and Hort 1881 and Tregelles 1857
Revised Standard Version Modern English 1952 Masoretic Text, Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament.
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition Modern English 1966 Revision of the Revised Standard Version.
Revised English Bible Modern English 1987 Revision of the New English Bible.
The Scriptures Modern English & Hebrew (Divine Names) 1993, revised 1998 & revised 2009 Masoretic Text (Biblia Hebraica), Textus Receptus Greek text Popular Messianic Translation by the Institute for Scripture Research
Simplified English Bible Modern English.
The Beloved and I English Verse 2005+ New Jubilees version of the Bible in English Verse by Thomas McElwain. Four volumes.
The Story Bible Modern English 1971 A summary/paraphrase, by Pearl S. Buck
Taverner's Bible Early Modern English 1539 Minor revision of Matthew's Bible
Thomson's Translation Modern English 1808 Codex Vaticanus (according to the introduction in the reprint edition by S. F. Pells) of the Septuagint (but excluding the Apocrypha) and of the New Testament
Today's New International Version Modern English 2005 Masoretic Text (Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, 1983), Nestle-Aland Greek text Revision of the New International Version.
Third Millennium Bible Modern English 1998 Revision of the King James Version.
Tyndale Bible Early Modern English 1526 (New Testament)
1530 (Pentateuch)

Masoretic Text, Erasmus' third NT edition (1522), Martin Luther's 1522 German Bible. Incomplete translation. Tyndale's other Old Testament work went into the Matthew's Bible (1537).
Updated King James Version Modern English 2004
A Voice In The Wilderness Holy Scriptures Modern English 2003 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus
Common English Bible Modern English 2011
Webster's Revision Modern English 1833 Revision of the King James Version.
Westminster Bible Modern English 1936 Greek and Hebrew
The Work of God's Children Illustrated Bible[10] Modern English 2010 Revision of the Challoner Revision of the Douay-Rheims Bible. Released into the public domain by The Work of God's Children (nonprofit corporation)
World English Bible[11] Modern English In progress The World English Bible (WEB) is a Public Domain (no copyright) Modern English translation of the Holy Bible. That means that you may freely copy it in any form, including electronic and print formats. The World English Bible is based on the American Standard Version of the Holy Bible first published in 1901, the Biblia Hebraica Stutgartensa Old Testament, and the Greek Majority Text New Testament. It is in draft form, and currently being edited for accuracy and readability. Released into the public domain by Rainbow Missions, Inc. (nonprofit corporation)
Wycliffe's Bible (1380) Middle English 1380 Latin Vulgate
Wycliffe's Bible (1388) Middle English 1388 Latin Vulgate
Young's Literal Translation Modern English 1862 Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus This Bible version is now Public Domain due to copyright expiration.
The Orthodox Jewish Bible Modern English 2002
Tree of Life Bible[12] Modern English 2014 Masoretic Text, the 27th Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece

[Sean]

Its sad that the Lord left us in a world full of False Bibles. There is no exact "standard" of truth for us these days at all..

The only alternative is to invent our own exact truth Bible.

This is a bigger task than trying to UNIFY churches or the brethren, if our Bible is error prone and partially wrong.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Mike,

Leveticus 23:5-6 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Unless I am reading this wrong the Lord's passover happens before the feast of unleavened bread. (In other words passover is not the same thing as the feast of unleavened bread)

The context in Acts where pascha is translated as easter is a context where passover already happened and they were on into the days of unleavened bread which levitcus seems to show is after passover.

Since peter was going to be held till a certain pascha which was after the days of unleavened bread I think the translators must of reasoned that context showed that pascha could not have meant passover here since passover would have already occured before the days of unleavened bread.

Passover is used in two ways, brother. It is the feast before the feast of unleavened bread and before Firstfruits. But it is ALSO the name of the three feasts combined! They call the whole set of the first three feasts by the title of the first one, PASSOVER, as a group as well.

Similarly, the LAST SET of Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles is also known wholly as Tabernacles.





I don't necessarily endorse the interpretations of the feasts in typology as the illustration at top shows. But I post this to show it is common knowledge that the first three feasts and the last three are entitled as a group after one of each of the sets.