Jesus, the only begotten Son of God was divine and God almighty. It does not necessarily follow that he was the Father in heaven as well. The Father, by definition is God beyond the incarnation while the Son is/was God in and through the incarnation.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Great post. But what do you mean that you had lied to yourself about the HG experience? Do you believe that you had "counterfeit tongues"?
I can completely relate to this experience. Although I had been raised UPC, I never actually spoke in tongues until a later age (I was late teens). I was not rebellious; I had prayed/tarried/fasted for years for the HG. During my late childhood, early teen years, I had some humiliating experiences at the altar where people were trying to pray me through.
I was absolutely petrified of children/youth revival services, and would not wish my experiences on my worst enemy. Well-meaning people would usher me down to the altar (without asking my preferences) and begin to yell in my ear. I was an introvert, and this practice scared the daylights out of me; never was I in a spiritual mindset during those altar call moments. I was scared, and believed I was going to hell. An evangelist told me he was "hot on my trail."
The word "rapture" made me tremble because I didn't have the Holy Ghost, although I had wept and prayed my heart out over and over. I can't just sit back and say nothing about this. Unfortunately, my story is not unique.
None of this should be a bad reflection on my parents; they loved me and were not overly pressuring me about the HG. All of these experiences happened during camp meetings, youth revivals, and Bible Quiz rallies. Where was the cross in all of this? Why didn't my teachers tell me that Jesus had absorbed the Father's wrath and had given me His righteousness so that I didn't have to feel ashamed and guilty anymore? Where was the Gospel?
Do I love and value the gift of tongues? Absolutely. Do I believe that we should terrorize people into believing that that they are lost if they have never received tongues? No.
Your experience sounds very close to mine. I was very self conscious and many times at the altar was just trying to please the people around me. I too fasted and prayed and didn't want to go to Hell. I guess, deep down, as a young child, I knew that the baptism experience wasn't real because I figured that as long as I convinced myself and others I was saved. Deep down I knew I wasn't saved though. It would take another twenty years before I would be born again after leaving the UPC.
Lets be real, who can really tell if someone is speaking in tongues or not. I have heard many big time preachers in the UPC speak in tongues over the mic and it didn't sound spirit led at all. It just sounded like the same phrases that we hear everybody do. In other denominations they have a different tone or phrase that is consistantly repeated. This just shows me that a lot of it is just learned behavior.
I do not feel like I had false tongues. I just didn't speak in tongues at all. I got excited and wanted it so bad that I just said, jesus jesus, jesus so fast that it probably sounded like tongues. The culture was such that once I told folks I had it there was a collective sign of relief. A couple of other times in my life I was kind of forced into a situation where I had to react or either look like a cold hearted backslider.
Once, our church was having a great "revival". Because I played the guitar I was basically exempt from the altar call and the whole frenzy. Well, there was a young man in our church who was going to JCM and figured he could pray anyone through. The service got heated and he pranced around laying hands on anyone who could be blessed with his anointing. Well, there had been talk that if they could ever get those cold hearted musicians to respond then that just might be the key to revival. (there had been many prophecies and messages in tongues given that a huge revival would take place and fill the building up). So he issued the challenge in front of the whole church, he walked over and waved me down to the altar, well of course I knew I was lost as ever and I wanted to get back to God. The only way I knew that could happen was to pray back through. I calmly put my guitar down and walked over and the music got louder, people started clapping and crying and surrounding me and I just knew it was my chance to get back right with God. A typical praying through altar call started, the young preacher slapped his hand on my head and bent my head back. They had me and were not about to let me go until I prayed through.
I never spoke in tongues at that time. I cried and bawled my eyes out and looked emotional enough that I still have people tell me to this day that they know I spoke in tongues and got the Holy Ghost. I didn't. I knew I didn't. I was just as empty after that as I had ever been. It would still be six or seven years later before I could admit that I still had never spoken in tongues.
I cringe at the thought of ever being in that situation again. I wake up having nightmares about those altar calls. I start to get angry when I think about how stupid I was to allow those people to manipulate me for so long. I don't hate my heritage because I know God allows things to happen for a reason.
If being a Trintarian means firmly believing that the Son is NOT the Father, then I am probably almost there in your book.
.
No you are where I am in my book. I firmly believe the form of the Son and the Father are distinct. I just hope you don't go to where you see God as an US eternally when He said I am alone and there is no God beside me (that was the Father, WOrd, and Spirit speaking, else the other two aren't God)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
A Promise and not a command is EXACTLY how I see it. Apostolics add to the Bible when we present the infilling of the Holy Ghost in any other light.
.
They don't add to the Bible, they interpret the birth of the Spirit to be the infilling of the HG. The phrase "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit" (sound of wind Acts 2:1) gets the church on this. How I read it is.. so is everyone that is born of the Spirit, NOT so is everyone WHEN they are born of the Spirit. THere is a difference. THe UPC emphasizes that every believer should experience the HG baptism and that is the Bible. Anyone that doesn't preach this is not adding to, but taking away in my opinion. It just WHEN someone is baptized with the HG that is in argument. Acts 8 and Acts 19 clearly show me it doesn't always happen at belief and baptism. That Jermyn is what we have to go on, the Bible. The AOG have backed away from the exhortation to receive this gift in a lot of their assemblies but not all. So if you are going there, try to get them to see the importance of exhortance every believer, while embracing them as "being" saved.
Also try to show them the name of Jesus is not a bad thing to call on in baptism. A lot of their pastors baptize either way or both ways and thats a plus in my book!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
I've held out as long as I have been willing to, hoping for that change.
For the sake of honesty it is just better for me to pitch my tent with Christians that I agree with on such a crucial issue.
Honesty? If you preach the Bible and fellowship with those who you may disagree with, thats dishonest? Honestly you are not going to agree with the AOG either on some things. A know salvation is a crucial issue but understand that no one has "made" heaven their home yet. Salvation is not just an event and that has done more damage to Christianity than any other doctrine in my opinion. When a person says, I've got it all; and just trusts on their experiences, vs., the abiding presence of Christ to lead them; any church gets in danger whether its Apostolic, Baptist, Methodist, etc.
I'm just letting you know those of us who leave condemnation to God and believe the HG baptism as for everyone and a promise can coexist and agree to disagree on "when" someone is forgiven of sins, etc. as long as we continue to pursue all that God has for us. Thats why I continue my lot with the Oneness truth and fellowship with the UPC. We believe the baptism has salvational importance and so it does. We are going to need everything we can get from the Lord Jesus to take care of this flesh and walk in the overcoming power of the Lord.
__________________ To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
I cringe at the thought of ever being in that situation again. I wake up having nightmares about those altar calls. I start to get angry when I think about how stupid I was to allow those people to manipulate me for so long. I don't hate my heritage because I know God allows things to happen for a reason.
I've been on both sides of the fence and I know of a certainly the baptism of the HG did something to enhance my relationship with Jesus. So do MANY others who came out of denominal churches. You can't compare your experience to everyone acrossed the board. THe HG baptism made me on fire for Jesus like nothing else did. It wasn't false or hocus pocus.
__________________ To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
Jesus, the only begotten Son of God was divine and God almighty. It does not necessarily follow that he was the Father in heaven as well. The Father, by definition is God beyond the incarnation while the Son is/was God in and through the incarnation.
Actually Jehovah was the father in Heaven and the Son on the earth at the same time. THe Son is not the Father in form, but in transcendance God is all three. Just each of the forms have a distinct personality that we see. That is the beauty of the incarnation that God can be three and yet be the I AM while he is this three at the same time! What an amazing revelation of the One God.
__________________ To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
I've been on both sides of the fence and I know of a certainly the baptism of the HG did something to enhance my relationship with Jesus. So do MANY others who came out of denominal churches. You can't compare your experience to everyone acrossed the board. THe HG baptism made me on fire for Jesus like nothing else did. It wasn't false or hocus pocus.
True but we don't know that it was the speaking in tongues or maybe just the first time you truly committed yourself to Christ. God will meet us where we are. If we think we need to have that experience or something like that he will allow it to happen. I just don't like the idea of hazing new converts.
Also, we are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to seek after God with all our hearts. That is a good thing. Why can't we just keep tongues separate? If we really believe that God has control and the Holy Spirit moves where it wills then we should back off and stop trying to force it.
Jesus, the only begotten Son of God was divine and God almighty. It does not necessarily follow that he was the Father in heaven as well. The Father, by definition is God beyond the incarnation while the Son is/was God in and through the incarnation.
Right!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Actually Jehovah was the father in Heaven and the Son on the earth at the same time. THe Son is not the Father in form, but in transcendance God is all three. Just each of the forms have a distinct personality that we see. That is the beauty of the incarnation that God can be three and yet be the I AM while he is this three at the same time! What an amazing revelation of the One God.
How is this not trinitarian doctrine? The whole concept of the trinity is that there is relationship within the godhead.
I can honestly say that I do not need a pastor, or a church of any sort... there is nothing that either a pastor or church can provide for me that I cannot find for myself. When I listen to phone calls of people that for some reason have to talk to my dad (a pastor) almost daily, or even several times a day, it intrigues me more than anything else. I just can't imagine how their lives must be if they feel they cannot make any decision, or go through any sort of emotions without calling the pastor or pastor's wife to discuss them. At 39 years old and about to turn 40, I can't think of a single thing that has happened in my life that a church or pastor would have been able to help me with, and I am being completely honest. I will say that other churches and pastors frequently help my mom and dad since they choose to live "on faith" and regularly find that the ends don't meet when you live on faith, but they don't see it that way. They live life in such a way that even if they can't pay their rent, or their utilities, as long as they had a can of beans for supper, then God provided (even if it took someone who DIDN'T live on faith to provide the can of beans...)
At the same time, I do try to nurture my relationships with my friends and certain family members that have a life outside of church. I believe that being around other people that care is rewarding to all parties involved in the relationship, but there are many places you can find that outside of church. I see no reason to subject myself to church, a pastor, or even religion of any sort. I don't need anything that they are selling... and feel free to call me selfish, but I DO practice giving to charity and volunteering my time as well, and I also don't live in the gutter (like is predicted of anyone who "backslides").
True but we don't know that it was the speaking in tongues or maybe just the first time you truly committed yourself to Christ. God will meet us where we are. If we think we need to have that experience or something like that he will allow it to happen. I just don't like the idea of hazing new converts.
Also, we are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to seek after God with all our hearts. That is a good thing. Why can't we just keep tongues separate? If we really believe that God has control and the Holy Spirit moves where it wills then we should back off and stop trying to force it.
Th reason we can't keep tongues separate is that tongues came with the baptism each time a sign is listed. The idea is that we want to experience the same thing they did in the book of Acts. When they got it they spoke in tongues and Joel prophecied about this experience that it would be poured out upon all flesh. Peter said the tongues and Spirit filling was that which was spoken by Joel.
That is why tongues aren't kept separate in my opinion. We just need to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent otherwise. Thats my motto.
__________________ To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
Linear Mode
