I am not going to say that pastors are perfect people (I have personal cause to know better as I have known quite a few). I have watched any number of things happen that should not have happened and had them done to me. However, I believe that the vast majority of pastors are good men, and do not place a burden of perfection on them that they do not deserve.
I am not going to get involved in a bash fest that so many of these threads turn into. Call me what you will, but the ministry is not to be touched, and it is perilous for ministers to engage in attacks on one another. It never ends well.
I'm not 'bashing' anybody... but do you ever wonder WHY threads turn into bashing pastors if that is what you want to call it?
I think that anytime someone sets them selves on a pedestal they have further to fall.
If ministers were truly servants and love their flock how many 'bashings' do you really think there would be. I for one can never see myself saying an unkind word about someone like that. But the pastor I sat under for so many years has already been described by me in detail... I have no reason to come on here and lie... and others have shared lists of burdens that were put on the people that have nothing to do with what Jesus taught... Come on 'no open toed shoes'???? Jesus wore sandals. No beards... really? Some times it is laugh or cry.
These men who treat their congregants as if they were deserving of zero respect or even of an opinion and then extort their living from them do deserve disdain. And the people who suffer under then deserve someone to tell them that it is OK to break away, that they will not be struck dead where they stand as they have been told.
I broke away. I am glad. My family did not break up, my children did not get sick, I did not die. God still loves me and I still love Him. Somebody needs to hear that because some pastor somewhere has told them that if they do anything against his wishes or even speak unkindly of the 'man of god' to their own spouse or dearest friend those things and worse will befall them. And they are paralyzed with fear... and that is not of God.
As long as man is flesh and bones, there are no perfect men or women. We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. While we are told not to place a burden of perfection on them that they do not deserve, the road goes both ways. Some ministers expect perfection from the saints when it comes to obeying all their church rules or they get "sat down".
But it is ok for the ministry to "touch" the saints because the saints do not feel led to "obey" ridiculous extra biblical church ordinances?
I am a person who would rather talk things out and come to some sort of agreement, even if it means agree to disagree and stay friends. But some people cannot do this. It has to be done their way or no way.
I do not advocate attacks on anybody, minister or saints. However, the minister , like you said, is not perfect. If he knowingly causes a saint [of whom he disagrees with because they are honest enough to try to discuss the problem with him] to be unwelcome in a church because of his phone call, don't you think that he should know how utterly wrong this action is? Most minister's I have met take suggestions as a personal offense, and some are just flat mean such as talking about the saints in their church over dinner. But then again, I only have experience with these types of people in my little region of a big wide world.
I am going to attempt to answer your questions as best I can.
A pastor must set certain criteria as he feels God is pleased with. For some it will be more, and others less. However, a wise pastor does not attempt to set a bar that can not be in keeping with the principles of Scripture. This is why certain standards (wearing red, open toed shoes) change with time. And why others are permanent.
It is no different than work. We are often in workplaces that require a 'standard' and think nothing of it, but standards are rejected out of hand if applied to the church. This is backward. The pastor does not forbid attendance and worship, just positions of leadership and influence. He is called to be the shephard and steward of the heritage of the Lord. Also, he is already subject to a greater judgment for transgression because of his position.
A phone call to another pastor is not wrong, so that the pastor will know who, where, and why. If it is a negative report, that is between the pastors and God. If that is passed down to the saints of the receiving saints, it had best not be in the vein of idle gossip as seems to have been the case here. There are certain conversations that should be kept confidential by ministers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus2woman
I'm not 'bashing' anybody... but do you ever wonder WHY threads turn into bashing pastors if that is what you want to call it?
I think that anytime someone sets them selves on a pedestal they have further to fall.
If ministers were truly servants and love their flock how many 'bashings' do you really think there would be. I for one can never see myself saying an unkind word about someone like that. But the pastor I sat under for so many years has already been described by me in detail... I have no reason to come on here and lie... and others have shared lists of burdens that were put on the people that have nothing to do with what Jesus taught... Come on 'no open toed shoes'???? Jesus wore sandals. No beards... really? Some times it is laugh or cry.
These men who treat their congregants as if they were deserving of zero respect or even of an opinion and then extort their living from them do deserve disdain. And the people who suffer under then deserve someone to tell them that it is OK to break away, that they will not be struck dead where they stand as they have been told.
I broke away. I am glad. My family did not break up, my children did not get sick, I did not die. God still loves me and I still love Him. Somebody needs to hear that because some pastor somewhere has told them that if they do anything against his wishes or even speak unkindly of the 'man of god' to their own spouse or dearest friend those things and worse will befall them. And they are paralyzed with fear... and that is not of God.
No, I do not wonder at 'pastor bashing'. It has been around since Moses.
I believe that some standards change as the culture changes, but others must remain constant. (Can you even find a set of hose with a seam in the back?)
I have known mistreatment at the hand of the ministry, but I will not discuss it as there is nothing edifying there. All it would do is stir anger, frustration, bitterness, and a sour attitude. What was done was done, and I survived and became stronger. I choose to remember only the good points, and while I know the bad, I will only speak of the good. I had and choose to maintain my respect of these men, even if they were incorrect. I am subject to make errors or possibly be misunderstood. As far as I am concerned, even if they were wrong, I will let God be the ultimate judge of all, and continue loving and praying for them as if no wrong were ever committed.
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I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.
I am going to attempt to answer your questions as best I can.
A pastor must set certain criteria as he feels God is pleased with. For some it will be more, and others less. However, a wise pastor does not attempt to set a bar that can not be in keeping with the principles of Scripture. This is why certain standards (wearing red, open toed shoes) change with time. And why others are permanent.
It is no different than work. We are often in workplaces that require a 'standard' and think nothing of it, but standards are rejected out of hand if applied to the church. This is backward. The pastor does not forbid attendance and worship, just positions of leadership and influence. He is called to be the shephard and steward of the heritage of the Lord. Also, he is already subject to a greater judgment for transgression because of his position.
A phone call to another pastor is not wrong, so that the pastor will know who, where, and why. If it is a negative report, that is between the pastors and God. If that is passed down to the saints of the receiving saints, it had best not be in the vein of idle gossip as seems to have been the case here. There are certain conversations that should be kept confidential by ministers.
No, I do not wonder at 'pastor bashing'. It has been around since Moses.
I believe that some standards change as the culture changes, but others must remain constant. (Can you even find a set of hose with a seam in the back?)
I have known mistreatment at the hand of the ministry, but I will not discuss it as there is nothing edifying there. All it would do is stir anger, frustration, bitterness, and a sour attitude. What was done was done, and I survived and became stronger. I choose to remember only the good points, and while I know the bad, I will only speak of the good. I had and choose to maintain my respect of these men, even if they were incorrect. I am subject to make errors or possibly be misunderstood. As far as I am concerned, even if they were wrong, I will let God be the ultimate judge of all, and continue loving and praying for them as if no wrong were ever committed.
Not wanting to beat this to death... Yes there are standards in the workplace and lots of other places too. It is shameful that people are losing every sense of modesty and decorum and the church has an obligation to teach what pleases God. It's the ridiculous, only done to prove control stuff that I'm discussing. Whether the pastor does it spitefully or just because it was handed down to him and he is too lazy to read his bible and think for himself matters not to me.
I do think that people suffering under that kind of leadership do need a place to hear that this is not OK... because the biggest abuse is to tell someone that they can not discuss what is happening to them. It is a trait practiced by wife abusers and child abusers and molesters... the demand that you discuss it with NO ONE.
A pastor with a good ministry should be happy to be questioned, to defend his position with the Bible and to let people grow in God at the pace God sets for them. As a late bloomer myself I am glad that there were those in the ministry who were secure enough to address my questions and issues head on and give a clear picture of what the Lord requires for salvation without tagging on a lot of baggage. I am regretful of ever meeting some who tried to make it so hard that I would have never been able to do it. And I am open to share those experiences both good and bad if they can help someone else in even the smallest way.
Please consider Jay that some of those abuses may have happened to you for a reason and that one day someone may need to know more than that ministry has always been good to you... and please prayerfully consider being willing to open up and share what might help them.
Not wanting to beat this to death... Yes there are standards in the workplace and lots of other places too. It is shameful that people are losing every sense of modesty and decorum and the church has an obligation to teach what pleases God. ...
What, exactly, pleases God?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Not wanting to beat this to death... Yes there are standards in the workplace and lots of other places too. It is shameful that people are losing every sense of modesty and decorum and the church has an obligation to teach what pleases God. It's the ridiculous, only done to prove control stuff that I'm discussing. Whether the pastor does it spitefully or just because it was handed down to him and he is too lazy to read his bible and think for himself matters not to me.
I do think that people suffering under that kind of leadership do need a place to hear that this is not OK... because the biggest abuse is to tell someone that they can not discuss what is happening to them. It is a trait practiced by wife abusers and child abusers and molesters... the demand that you discuss it with NO ONE.
A pastor with a good ministry should be happy to be questioned, to defend his position with the Bible and to let people grow in God at the pace God sets for them. As a late bloomer myself I am glad that there were those in the ministry who were secure enough to address my questions and issues head on and give a clear picture of what the Lord requires for salvation without tagging on a lot of baggage. I am regretful of ever meeting some who tried to make it so hard that I would have never been able to do it. And I am open to share those experiences both good and bad if they can help someone else in even the smallest way.
Please consider Jay that some of those abuses may have happened to you for a reason and that one day someone may need to know more than that ministry has always been good to you... and please prayerfully consider being willing to open up and share what might help them.
Peace.
Amen Sister. Many people who go into the OP movement think very highly of the ministers. I know now that the ministers are mere men with a loftier position than the rest of the saints in the organized church system (of whatever denomination), but nonetheless, are highly thought of by a sinner just saved by the grace of God. They consider ministers to be messengers of God’s Word. When the ministers have a human moment and fail the people by what they say and do, it can be quite devastating to the people. I share the same opinion in that it can be a healing experience to learn that:
1) All men and women have the potential to fail God, regardless of their position in life.
2. God’s Sovereignity, Grace and Love does not stop because a man/woman judges another man/woman and the implication is that it is God’s judgment.
I think that one reason ministers do not like to hear criticism about the other minister's failures, is that they themselves do not want this to be projected onto them. They want their chance to minister without the cloud of mistrust or disdain that the offending minister has created.
A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.
(Proverbs 18:19)
People who have been hurt by man must go through a healing process to make sense of it all so that they can continue to walk with Christ on this journey of life. Talking about it helps that healing process. Those of us who have been hurt must remember that ministers are not "up there" like we thought and that they share the same weaknesses and human failures that we do.
It is then that the ones hurt can have the heart to forgive and move on in our quest to serve God.
I think now what I battle the most is for any man to place himself/herself above fellow man. Those who fell down before the Apostles, and even Angels that God has sent were strongly rebuked by them...See that thou doeth not! was their reply.
Generally in the PAW a written letter of recommendation is given. I've experienced phone calls, but I always ask for a written letter. I want to make sure that I know at least what is said about me and where I stand with the ministry officially. Usually phone calls only happen when the two pastors know each other well. For instance, my next assignment might bring me within close proximity to a church that my current church started and there's a 99.99999% I'll be directed to that church. I know my pastor and their pastor talk on the phone and are best friends. I'm close to that pastor's son and their family. I'll still ask for a letter though, I like to have those on file to reference.
Usually phone calls only happen when the two pastors know each other well.
Yes, and it is unfair to the saint when two "friends" speak about the saint and only one point of view is seen. Then the board members hear it and they tell their wives. The wives tell their friends and the saint doesn't know that the whole church knows a one-sided story. The saint gets a cold-shoulder because nobody is wanting to "be seen" with the saint...and nobody, not even the pastor asks the other side of the story.
Even the secular civil court system doesn't pass judgment this way. They at least present both sides of the issue.
Consider the young lady seeking restoration in an earlier post. The son of the pastor took it upon himself to tell the parents of the young lady that she should not be living with them.
I wonder how that is any of his business what the parents do for their child? I haven't seen a minister shun his own family who backslid yet, even in my region.
Then told her that their church did not want her there and neither did God. Perhaps there is more to the story, perhaps not. But..
One can come to a conclusion that since this young man said something that only the pastor should have said and spoke for the entire church, he harmed this young lady. And I am merely supposing here that many in the church knew about this young lady's sin and nobody was spiritual enough to set about trying to restore her.
[QUOTE=AreYouReady?;1128105]Yes, and it is unfair to the saint when two "friends" speak about the saint and only one point of view is seen. [QUOTE]
I'm not saying it is. I personally don't mind it in my case, since I don't have all the suspicious trust issues some people have with their pastors. My current pastor is as a father figure and mentor to me. I know he's had discussions with other pastors about me, being that I'm active in my district council, however I also know he speaks highly of me so I hear.
One thing the people totally forget about church, is that it is not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous. Why? Because that is where they are convicted by the Word and by the Spirit. If you do not have Sinners, Backsliders and Hypocrits sitting in your pews, then you are not reaching the World.
If someone is ever asked to leave the church (other then for a disruption), then the Pastor for sure is not in the will of God. For even our LORD and Savior went out to the hi-ways and bi-ways and called the homeless, the sinners, to come and dine with him.
Hint. If your church does not look like the world, THEN YOU ARE NOT REACHING THE WORLD.
One thing the people totally forget about church, is that it is not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous. Why? Because that is where they are convicted by the Word and by the Spirit. If you do not have Sinners, Backsliders and Hypocrits sitting in your pews, then you are not reaching the World.
If someone is ever asked to leave the church (other then for a disruption), then the Pastor for sure is not in the will of God. For even our LORD and Savior went out to the hi-ways and bi-ways and called the homeless, the sinners, to come and dine with him.
Hint. If your church does not look like the world, THEN YOU ARE NOT REACHING THE WORLD.
This is a good post. It is why the church exists while the bridegroom tarries.
Hybrid Mode
