Not sure where to go from this point...

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

What happened to "Good Grief" ???

I have to switch it up sometimes...........

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Amen.
It seems to me that, in brief,
if the guy's stance on certain spiritual issues,
preached from the pulpit, is no longer
lining up with what one believes,
then what is there to discuss?

Any very fundamental differences, discussed,
can only bring strife, imo.
This is an unction from God to find one's
next Right Pastor to me.

Please pardon me, but it is easy to see where you are coming from when we consider that Churchanity as a whole is over 31 Flavors.

That if a situation crops up we just leave, and resume our search for the ever allusive holy grail of our own personal preferences.

I see where Evenuntodeath tells us that she was more an individualist, than someone to go along with the rank and file.

Yet, any religion which is built on a clergy, laity structure, works to bring clergy, as well as devotees into some sort of "one mind, and one accord" as is presented in the Bible.

Eastern Religion blows away Christianity in the subject of conformity. While we may have foot washing, we sure don't have to kiss the feet of the Guru, or Swamiji or prostrate oneself before the Buddhist monk.

Sri Rama Krishna once told a devotee to stick his head in a bucket of water until he was tapped on the back by Sri Rama Krishna.

But that's religion! I'm not saying that we should have brutal unreasonable commands given to us, but let's first understand that when we come to any religion we are going to deal with situations which at first may not understand in totality, even when shown, book, chapter, and verse. If the church family, and pastor we hold in high regard, that high regard most of been formulated through some sort of relationship over time.

Now it should be noted Evenuntodeath felt like she was back in high school? In my own personal opinion, didn't she leave a while ago? Now to be completely fair to Evenuntodeath, does she feel like she is just being told, instead of taught? Hence, a talking to the pastor who is held in high regard should be in order.

We are talking about three years, three years of building a relationship which led Evenuntodeath to view the "pastor" with high regard, that is why the issue for a discussion could posssibly ease the thoughts of Evenuntodeath?

Hey, all I'm saying here is three years relationships should of been established to the point that individuals can sit down and clear all doubts between each other.

Yet, with somewhere around 33,000 denominations in the United States you can find something to soothe the fevered brow.


Yet, three years is a bit of time, and in those three years the poster made the comment that she had high regards for the pastor?

Again, that's just how I see it with the immensely meager amount of information I have on this situation

[ILG]

I left the UPC after being in it for 19 years. I understand where you are coming from. I read the first page of this thread but not any more of it. You will get many answers.......some helpful, some hurtful. Pay close attention to how the answers make you feel. Do they lift you up? Do they put you down and in a cage? Then, trust yourself and follow the responses that edify you. Self denial is not the same thing as having no respect for your own opinions.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Churchanity can be very new age.

It is like eating health food and wanting it to taste like junk food.

[Charnock]

Evenuntodeath, where to go from here?

Run!

Run away as far and fast as possible.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath

Rude and condescending. Typical. Do you have anything constructive to add, or will you just continue to troll on my thread??

EUD, I have had my epic battles with Benincasa, but over the years I've come to respect his stance and his wisdom. He's in your face sometimes, but he will always make you think.

So, please don't think I'm jumping on the dogpile, because I too left the UPC several years ago, and have never been happier.

But, to EB's point, even though you don't feel that anything you say will change your pastor's mind (and I'm sure you're right) you owe it more to yourself to sit down with him and share your feelings.

My gut feeling is, and this is only after having read your short post, that you will wind up leaving......and I really think you'll want to do it with a clear conscience, knowing that you've done all you can to close the loop.

Those are just my thoughts, and certainly not intended to be any official counseling!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath

I have a lot of mixed emotions about this so forgive me if my post doesn't read smoothly.

Let me start off by saying, I joined UPC three years ago. Before that, I never had much of a religious background, I can count on my hand the number of times I went to church as a kid. For a brief period I dabbled in different philosophies(atheism, new age), until life hit me like a ton of bricks and I started to give Christianity a second thought.

I, like others before me, fell in love with the experience, baptized in water and spirit. Soon after I fell in line with the standards they require of members(well, some of them).

Fast forward to present. The excitement of new birth experience has started to wear off replaced with feelings of doubt, suffocation, feeling out of place.

Let me explain. Even when I was young, I've always disliked conformity. I've always valued independence, this partially originates from how I was raised. My father taught us to think for ourselves, be ourselves and never take what someone says at face value.

So you can already guess that going from a liberal, free thinking environment to an conservative, traditional environment my life kind of did a 180. I go to church and I feel like I'm back in high school. You know, the popular cliche who always walked, talked, dressed the same, act the same? *Sigh* Yeah.

A few months back my pastor preached that makeup is of the devil(yes, those were his exact words). Of course, me being me, next Sunday I wore some powder with mascara and conducted myself as I normally do.

In one lesson my bible study teacher said the movies theater and TV were not recommended. I asked my teacher if going to see Veggie Tales was ok. After a pause, he told me the previews might be inappropriate(I've never heard of R rated being shown in G rated movies!) and of course, he said, there may be an issue with "appearance and credibility". . I'm sorry, I couldn't resist

Long story short: I'm starting to think 'this' particular church is really not my scene. I don't believe everything preached on the pulpit and I'm tired of acting as though I do. Many people are kind and god fearing, and I view my pastor with the up most regards. But overall, I slowly realizing that I don't see a future here.

Sorry for the long post, but really I gave you the gist of things without going into too much detail.

By the way,

Is there any biblical reference to certain churches having less power? I've heard this mentioned by saints and the first lady that churches which don't have the strict holiness standards have little or no power. Can someone explain?

IMO, pastors have the right (and obligation) to share their opinions and interpretations of scripture from the pulpit. Bottom line, if you can't adhere to church rules or can't reach an "agree to disagree" compromise with the pastor, you should attend somewhere where that is possible.

Whether you think the pastor's statements are silly or not, he has the right to his opinions and the right to share them. It doesn't make him foolish.

We have had a couple of issues that we discussed with our pastor. In one instance, he gave us permission to adhere to our own preferences and in a couple of others, he asked that we adhere to church guidelines. IMO, as a faithful member of the church, it's important that we follow his leadership. I can't have a clear conscience otherwise. I wouldn't, for instance, be comfortable wearing mascara to church the Sunday after my pastor preached against makeup. If makeup meant that much to me, then I would find a church that allowed it.

Step 1 would be to schedule an appointment and discuss your concerns with your pastor. In the meantime, you should adhere to the church guidelines unless and until you decide to attend elsewhere. (My opinion, of course.)

[Evenuntodeath]

Evang. Benincasa:

Yes, a part of me feels as if I am being told rather than taught on certain issues. Which is why I brought up the cosmetics, tv. and movies. But another gripe of mine is there seems certain standards which we "just don't do" rather than give biblical reference as to why we shouldn't do them. That is my main issue.

For example cosmetics. In my church not once has anyone sited biblical basis for why women should not use makeup. All the biblical references that would imply makeup is not a good idea I learned from the internet. In my church, its more along the lines of "you just don't need them". The reason the first lady sited was, "makeup makes you look old" I mean really?! Surely they can come up with better reasons than this.

Now the movie theater. It was not my pastor who said this, it was a minister/bible study teacher. However, I know that anything taught by the ministers has to be ok'd by the pastor first. In the bible study, I did ask him why going to the movie theater was not ok. He gave me his reasons, one of them being "appearance and credibility". In other words, it just doesn't look good for a christian to be seen at the movies. After that, I closed my mouth and let him continue with the bible study. The bible says women are to listen quietly, right? At the time, I didn't want to get into a drawn out debate over scripture and disrupt the bible study, for one, its very unladylike and unchristian. But privately I must say I have an issue with that line of reasoning. The biblical scriptures I've read say things should be done from the heart and not for the purpose of appearing holy or righteous.

In their defense, let me just say this. Both my pastor and his wife were raised in UPC. My pastor is a 3rd generation and his wife is 2nd. Sometimes I get the feeling some of these standards taught have less to do with scripture and more to do with how they were taught by their parents, pastor as well as following the guidelines of UPCI. Sometimes we do things out of habit and routine without any good reason as to why we do them(which is why I'm seeing that these standards may be a little easier for pentes who were raised in church, rather than those who came from a different or non religious background).

Right, ok, I can sympathize with that. But do they realize that someone like myself who was not raised in church needs a little more than "that's just the way it is"??

Now, do I have an issue with all the standards of UPC? No. I dress modestly, and I was never much a jewelry wearer even before I was saved so that is not a personal issue for me. I try not to cut my hair(still working on that), and I try to embrace the place God has ordained for women in the church.

But there comes a point where I question whether we are really doing all this to be holy or simply trying to earn salvation. A part of me feels like " what more do you want from me"?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath

Evang. Benincasa:

Yes, a part of me feels as if I am being told rather than taught on certain issues. Which is why I brought up the cosmetics, tv. and movies. But another gripe of mine is there seems certain standards which we "just don't do" rather than give biblical reference as to why we shouldn't do them. That is my main issue.

For example cosmetics. In my church not once has anyone sited biblical basis for why women should not use makeup. All the biblical references that would imply makeup is not a good idea I learned from the internet. Its more along the lines of "you just don't need them". The reason the first lady sited was, "makeup makes you look old" I mean really?! Surely they can come up with better reasons than this.

Now the movie theater. It was not my pastor who said this, it was a minister/bible study teacher. However, I know that anything taught by the ministers has to be ok'd by the pastor first. In the bible study, I did ask him why going to the movie theater was not ok. He gave me his reasons, one of them being "appearance and credibility". In other words, it just doesn't look good for a christian to be seen at the movies. After that, I closed my mouth and let him continue with the bible study. The bible says women are to listen quietly, right? At the time, I didn't want to get into a drawn out debate over scripture and disrupt the bible study, for one, its very unladylike and unchristian. But privately I must say I have an issue with that line of reasoning. The biblical scriptures I've read say things should be done from the heart and not for the purpose of appearing holy or righteous.

In their defense, let me just say this. Both my pastor and his wife were raised in UPC. My pastor is a 3rd generation and his wife is 2nd. Sometimes I get the feeling some of these standards taught have less to do with scripture and more to do with how they were taught by their parents, pastor as well as following the guidelines of UPCI. Sometimes we do things out of habit and routine without any good reason as to why we do them

Right, ok, I can sympathize with that. But do they realize that someone like myself who was not raised in church needs a little more than "that's just the way it is"??

Now, do I have an issue with all the standards of UPC? No. I dress modestly, and I was never much a jewelry wearer even before I was saved so that is not a personal issue for me. I try not to cut my hair(still working on that), and I try to embrace the place God has ordained for women in the church.

But there comes a point where I question whether we are really doing all this to be holy or simply trying to earn salvation. A part of me feels like " what more do you want from me"?

Excellent observation. My guess is that even tho many won't admit it, or may not even realize it.....it's the earning salvation motivation that is winning the race.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Please pardon me, but it is easy to see where you are coming from when we consider that Churchanity as a whole is over 31 Flavors.

That if a situation crops up we just leave, and resume our search for the ever allusive holy grail of our own personal preferences.

I see where Evenuntodeath tells us that she was more an individualist, than someone to go along with the rank and file.

Yet, any religion which is built on a clergy...

Ah, well, I see we are coming from different povs,
as I detest religion. While I would not counsel someone to jump ship
if they are where God wants them, but just being obstinate to the Spirit,
I believe whole-heartedly that every believer has a Right Pastor for them,
and that the time should come when that Pastor has taught you all they can, and one should then start getting indications of this, if they can but hear them.

At the end of the day, the Spirit should certainly be one's guide, imo.