Is there going to be a rapture????

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well I gave you 2 scriptural references and you apply them according to your personal beliefs.



If you can get this foundation...everything else will open to you.

THE DAY OF THE LORD IS THE DAY OF THE RAPTURE!

When does the DAY OF THE LORD OCCUR?


The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Acts 2:20




This passage above is quoting events like this one in Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
We can say we have already come to a consensus that the Rapture is possibly in Rev 11. This(acts 2:20 and Rev 8:12) is part of the events that will conclude the church age, leading to a Pre/Mid trib rapture...Afterwards of Rev. 11, the FULL BLOWN TRIBULATION starts with the absence of the Church.






THERE IT IS!

The day of the Lord (the rapture) will not come until the sun turns dark and the moon into blood.

And WHEN does this happen?

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24: 29-31

See?

Bro Michael, the above passage is referring to the "gathering" of all nations of Matt 25, occurring after the removal of the bride earlier in the passage...The sheep below are also considered the elect of God...They are and will be saved and enter into the Kingdom.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.



THE DAY OF THE LORD COMING LIKE A THIEF IS THE RAPTURE. That is the key.

As to the wrath of God that is relative. There will be increasing wrath through the trib.

Yet Gods ultimate wrath will not come till the wicked are cast into Gehenna.

Again, we have a consensus of a RAPTURE in Rev.11 before the Antichrist is revealed in Chapter 13, the church will likewise miss all of the judgements involving the Antichrist as a result.(8 Chapters of judgement missed)

[Michael The Disciple]

Sean

Brother Michael, this is speaking of Israel being kept from obliteration of the antichrist. Jesus came from the Jewish people ....13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Ahhhh so God IS ABLE to protect people in the time of great tribulation!

Its seems you are saying it would be impossible for him to protect his spirit baptized saints in that day BUT he COULD protect Israel.

But you have proved to yourself God CAN protect a people in the hardest of times. He does not have to take them to Heaven to do so.

BTW the woman and the manchild is actually the first fruit overcomers and the Church in general.

[Michael The Disciple]

Sean

Rev 16 also...

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 ¶ And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore Ex. 9.10 upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 ¶ And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 ¶ And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. Ex. 7.17-21
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 ¶ And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 ¶ And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; Ex. 10.21 and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.



Brother Michael, Biblically speaking, the born again saints will not even see these things transpire.....

Lets not be so hasty here Bro. I note that you stopped at verse 11. Let us CONTINUE to read in this chapter.

Verse 12 and following.

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Now this should become plain as day. Here we are deep in the tribulation time. Gods wrath is being poured out on the Earth.

AND YET THE DAY OF THE LORD that comes like a thief in the night HAS NOT YET HAPPENED!

We are now at the battle of Armageddon and we are told to be watching for the Lord is coming like a thief.

This deep in the trib we are told to watch and keep our garments waiting for the day of God Almighty!

So the wrath of God is coming on sinners, the wrath of satan is coming on saints all the way up until the battle of Armageddon.

Hope this helps.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Lets not be so hasty here Bro. I note that you stopped at verse 11. Let us CONTINUE to read in this chapter.

Verse 12 and following.

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Now this should become plain as day. Here we are deep in the tribulation time. Gods wrath is being poured out on the Earth.

AND YET THE DAY OF THE LORD that comes like a thief in the night HAS NOT YET HAPPENED!

We are now at the battle of Armageddon and we are told to be watching for the Lord is coming like a thief.

This deep in the trib we are told to watch and keep our garments waiting for the day of God Almighty!

So the wrath of God is coming on sinners, the wrath of satan is coming on saints all the way up until the battle of Armageddon.

Hope this helps.

My brother, you have presented a RAPTURE in Chapter 11....EVERYTHING from verse 12 on, I believe, along with you will happen AFTER the rapture of Chapter 11.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

My brother, you have presented a RAPTURE in Chapter 11....EVERYTHING from verse 12 on, I believe, along with you will happen AFTER the rapture of Chapter 11.

If you believe the rapture is in Rev 11 you are NOT a pre trib believer.

Rev 11 contains the sounding of the last trumpet. I agree the rapture happens then. But count back the other 6 that sound before the last. You will find you have been through the tribulation.

Rev 12-19 tells the same story over again.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If you believe the rapture is in Rev 11 you are NOT a pre trib believer. Brother Micheal, I said I was a pre trib with an asterisk, the asterisk means we could end up as far as the middle of it.(mid trib)

Rev 11 contains the sounding of the last trumpet. I agree the rapture happens then. But count back the other 6 that sound before the last. You will find you have been through the tribulation. Yes these prior events will be a wake up call for us to realize Jesus is coming. It corellates with what Jesus said in the gospels.."when ye see these thing BEGIN to come to pass, look up, for your redemption draweth near".

Rev 12-19 tells the same story over again.

Not at all, it(12-19) adds the beast, the vials of wrath, the battle of Armigeddon, the persecution of Israel by Antichrist and many other terrible things that the church will miss altogether.

A good O.T. parallel here is when Israel was in Egypt, they were divided from the plagues and untouched by them as they grew worse and more intense. The rapture will happen, far before things getting unbearable for us as we approach the doors of the Tribulation.

Revelation 3:10

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If you believe the rapture is in Rev 11 you are NOT a pre trib believer.

Rev 11 contains the sounding of the last trumpet. I agree the rapture happens then. But count back the other 6 that sound before the last. You will find you have been through the tribulation.

Rev 12-19 tells the same story over again.

Sounds like you have it all figured out, too. So I guess I should not post anything, right?

Just using your reasoning.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sounds like you have it all figured out, too. So I guess I should not post anything, right?

Just using your reasoning.

I make my choices you make yours

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sounds like you have it all figured out, too. So I guess I should not post anything, right?

Just using your reasoning.

Brother Blume, Mike the Disciple has the word! What he believes as endtime truth is manna straight from the backyard.

[Michael The Disciple]

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

These events are AFTER the great tribulation. For this to prove pre trib they would need to be before it.