Do angels have free will?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Barb

If choosing to rebel against God doesn't prove they have free will, what does? What else are you looking for? They chose, and they chose unwisely...

Free will means they chose without something necessarily causing their choice. So, choice in itself would not require free will.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

John 8:44 proves the devil is not a fallen angel. From THE BEGINNING he was a murderer - he ALWAYS was so. He abode or dwelt not in the truth - from the BEGINNING he was a murderer and did not dwell in the truth.

Abode means to dwell, people assume it means "to remain for a time", so they read it and interpret it to mean "he did not remain in the truth' as if he once was in the truth but at some point left it. That is not what it is saying, though. It is saying he did not DWELL in the truth.

And thus, "the devil is a fallen angel" story collapses under the weight of the word.

Interesting.

A rabbi friend of mine (Rabbi Kopmar) once explained that in Judaism, Satan, is actually not a fallen angel, but an angel that was created for the express purpose of testing and tempting mankind with evil (since God tempts no man with evil, directly).

While the Christian concept of Satan is a bit different, I mention this because if this were true, Satan would have been evil (a murderous liar) from the very moment of his creation. Of course, that would be from God's perspective. The angels may not have immediately known about the purpose of Satan's creation or about the cosmic battle that would unfold. Perhaps after a time in Heaven this evil created in Satan propelled him to rebel against God, bringing a third of the angels into rebellion with him, and they was cast out of the third Heaven to test man... as planned from the beginning.

Such a thing would mean that God is even the creator of evil, and is in complete control of all things, both good and evil. While it would appear that Satan's rebellion was an effort to thwart God, in fact, it was all a part of God's design to test both men and angels. And so, even Satan himself ultimately continues to serve the will of God.

Thoughts?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Will humans lose their free will at the resurrection?

And what about God? Does He have free will?

Did I even define free will correctly? I'd like to know if my definition is accurate or not.

Your questions are blowing my mind. This is very deep stuff if one thinks about it.

I'll just share my thoughts. But first, I want to admit that I don't honestly know for certain.

Will humans lose their free will at the resurrection?

I believe that when discussing free will it is important to consider nature. For example, a man might "will" to fly, but if he jumps off a ladder and flaps his arms, he'll fall flat on the ground. It isn't in a man's nature to fly like a bird, and so the man's will cannot bring him beyond his nature. Same with a man who "wills" to breathe under water. He can try, but he'll drown. It's not in his nature to breathe under water like a fish. A man's will cannot take him beyond his nature. This is why so many Christians struggle with guilt, shame, frustration, etc. as they try to live for God. Will as they might to never sin again, the unregenerated fallen nature of the flesh continues to serve as a barrier to absolute sinlessness. This flesh, with it's hormones, carnal desires for fullness, comfort, and pleasure... with it's genetic predispositions, imbalances, etc. seems to all too often become contrary to our will to live a sinless and holy life without ever sinning again. We fall down. We get up. We fall down. We get up. The act of getting up proves our metal. It also strengthens our will in that it can bring our desire to be holy and sinless to a flashpoint of holy fire and righteous indignation for our own fallen condition.

Now imagine resurrection morning. We will have been changed, our old nature completely vanquished, existing with not only a new inner nature (which we have right now) but a new nature entirely. Imagine that first day when we open our eyes and there is absolutely no contrary fleshly desire, impulse, or even temptation to sin. Not only will our spirits possess a new nature, but our bodies will as well. And the lifetime of battling sin and the fallen nature of the flesh will have steeled the resolve of the soul to desire nothing but absolute sinless perfection like Christ's, while also creating in us an adamant hatred for sin. Living sinlessly will be like gliding on the wind. A free bird. No resistance. Nothing but open sky to sore to heights of holiness never dreamed of. The freedom, the liberty, the release! Never to fall again. Never again feeling the pull to give in to a lustful thought or impulse, never again to be angry without cause. Never again to be bitter, resentful, hateful, or even "cranky". Finally, we will exist as the pure and lovingly holy beings we've always desired to be. We will be... like our glorified Saviour.

So, in a way, perhaps in the resurrection our will shall be more free than it is today, as we walk this earth in our fallen and unregenerated flesh. We will be free to be holy and to never sin again. Sinless perfection will be... our nature. And so our will to be sinless shall bring forth the purest form of holiness.

And what about God? Does He have free will?

I love this question! Of course He does. In fact, God's will is more free than anyone's, because He is God. Now, remember, will cannot go beyond nature. God's nature is sinless, and in Him is no darkness at all. This is why God cannot sin. Even if God imagined or desired to do evil (as in sin), He'd be trying to do that which is against His nature. So we know that God cannot lie. We know that God cannot be tempted. We know that God cannot do evil. Even that which God might do that we might call evil is ultimately in line with an eternal righteous and holy purpose. So, as with anyone, God's will is limited only by His nature. And so this brings us to one of the great truths of the incarnation, in Christ Jesus, God experienced all the temptation and impulse to sin that we feel on a daily basis, and still, He remained without sin. And so, our Creator knows personally what it is like to wake up feeling carnal in the morning. Our Creator knows what it is like to feel that anger rise up when perhaps it is a moment to be patient and gracious. He knows what it is like to have desires, impulses, and needs that are common to the human body. And so, His mercy comes not from a top down perspective of arrogant self-righteousness, but from a place of personal experience. "I know what it is like to be in that position my child. Your sins are forgiven you. Go and sin no more." The ultimate point I'm trying to make is that God's nature shall never allow Him to will or act below His sinless and holy nature.

That being said, God's free will is sovereign. We often ask if man has free will. But if we look at it, clearly both God and man have free will. In fact, the entire Bible is about how these wills often collide. Yet, the Bible reveals that God's will ultimately triumphs in every circumstance. So, if you think you're winning... you're most likely losing. And if you're losing, you're most likely winning. Did God call you to preach to the evil city of Nineveh? Did you will to go the opposite direction to Tarshish? Whose will won in the end, God or yours? Did you end up in storm, in the belly of a whale, and finally covered in sea-weed prophesying in Nineveh? Ah, you were losing, but you were winning. Did God begin to prick your heart to seek this Jesus and preach His gospel, even though you are persecuting God's people? Did you plan, lead, and execute these persecutions in spite of the pricks from the Holy Spirit? Did you will to go to Damascus to persecute more Christians? What happened? Whose will won in the end, God or yours? Did you find yourself knocked off your horse by a blinding light? Did you encounter the very Jesus you were persecuting? Were you stricken with blindness to force you to be humbled and seek out someone to pray for you? Did you experience a miraculous healing? Were you rejected by our countrymen and spend years in Arabia studying the Scriptures, praying, and meditating? Did you then begin preaching the Gospel as God desired? Of course you did!

God's free will is clearly seen in Scripture, as is man's. But God's will always triumph.

Those are my thoughts. What are your thoughts on these thoughts?

Awesomely deep stuff bro.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Interesting.

A rabbi friend of mine (Rabbi Kopmar) once explained that in Judaism, Satan, is actually not a fallen angel, but an angel that was created for the express purpose of testing and tempting mankind with evil (since God tempts no man with evil, directly).

While the Christian concept of Satan is a bit different, I mention this because if this were true, Satan would have been evil (a murderous liar) from the very moment of his creation. Of course, that would be from God's perspective. The angels may not have immediately known about the purpose of Satan's creation or about the cosmic battle that would unfold. Perhaps after a time in Heaven this evil created in Satan propelled him to rebel against God, bringing a third of the angels into rebellion with him, and they was cast out of the third Heaven to test man... as planned from the beginning.

Such a thing would mean that God is even the creator of evil, and is in complete control of all things, both good and evil. While it would appear that Satan's rebellion was an effort to thwart God, in fact, it was all a part of God's design to test both men and angels. And so, even Satan himself ultimately continues to serve the will of God.

Thoughts?

I do not believe heavenly angelic beings rebelled against God. I do not believe Lucifer was the choir director in heaven who led a rebellion. I believe a CLOSE examination of 2 Peter and Jude, combined with an understanding of prevalent Jewish myths of the time concerning fallen angels, would show that both Peter and Jude were warning about Jewish gnostic Essene types introducing those very myths into the church.

I do not believe in a single personal being called "Satan" or "the devil". Rather, satan and devil are common nouns that can refer to a variety of things, people, spirits, etc.

I believe God said He creates good, and evil, light, and darkness. I do not take "evil" in that case to mean moral evil, as if it were a thing or substance, but rather He is saying He creates the good (things in life) and the bad (things in life).

Moral evil is, to my understanding, a choosing of what is forbidden, or the moral character of one who so chooses. Moral character, as I currently understand it, presumes the free agency of the one making the choice. Why? Because morality is based on what "ought" to be chosen. One "ought" to choose right, which necessitates the ability to choose right, otherwise "oughtness" can't be predicated of the choice. But ability presupposes free agency, and the reality of an actual choice, an ability to choose one thing or another.

The problem, though, is that IF morality (moral character, good or bad) requires free agency, then if God prevents free agency He eliminates moral character from the choice. See Pharaoh and his hardened heart for a case study.

I suspect metaphysical concepts of agency and choice and will, as maintained by Calvinists, Arminians, and "Pelagians", which have dominated the discussion since antenicene times, may be in error. So I am looking for the Biblical declarations that speak to the subject.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Free will means they chose without something necessarily causing their choice. So, choice in itself would not require free will.

Free will means they have the freedom to choose. If I am bound to a law or rule that says I cannot choose to disagree, then I don't have free will. Choice denotes free will, in my humble opinion.

[Aquila]

I believe the following:

1.) All sentient beings (including angels) have free will.
2.) One's free will is limited by nature and/or the will of God.

For example, regeneration is what takes place when one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This regeneration is the impartation of a new and sinless spiritual nature in the inner man. Thus, this experience changes the very nature of the human spirit, making a human being a "new creature".

Without this experience a human being is unregenerated and continues to be subject to their fallen sinful nature. Meaning, though they have "free will", their choices, which are made freely, will nearly always have a sinful bent to them. For example, they will nearly always give into temptation, unless there is some self-serving purpose to resisting temptation. They might be "religious", but their religion only serves the ego. They might give to charity, but it is only to soothe conscience. They are not "new creatures" and are in desperate need of the Holy Ghost.

With the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as stated above, one is a "new creature". They have experienced regeneration. The individual who is baptized in the Holy Spirit now has a new and sinless spiritual nature imparted to their spirit, their "inner man". This new nature brings both the desire and power to live a sinless and holy life. However, the human mind (the soul) has been conditioned throughout life to serve the carnal and sinful desires of the flesh. Therefore, the mind must renewed, trained, and focused daily on the things of God. This is done through the study of Scripture (washing of water by the Word). Until resurrection/glorification, the body will remain unregenerated. Thus the flesh continues to have carnal and often sinful desires. This creates a tug-of-war between the new inner nature and the flesh... with one's mind and will (soul) in the middle. The mind that is truly renewed daily in the Word will tend to exercise will that is in favor of the new nature, leading to a holy and spiritual life in Christ. The mind that isn't renewed daily in the Word, but is carnal, will tend to exercise will that is in favor of the flesh. This can lead to a backslidden state of spiritual death and/or apostasy. This tension between the two natures, and choosing which nature to surrender the will to, is the Christian's greatest battle. This is why saints still experience temptation. This is why saints might struggle with sin. This is why saints can backslide and ultimately fall away.

The study of God's Word, prayer, meditation upon the truths of Scripture, fasting, and fellowship are Christian disciplines that feed the soul that it might have both the strength and encouragement to overcome the desires of the flesh.

So, to the Christian who is wondering why they continue to experience this "battle" when it comes to the desires of the flesh, be encouraged. It is normal. We've all experienced it. The battle is day by day. And there will be bad days. But you'll see that the good days of victory and peace will grow to outnumber the bad days. Strengthen your soul with the Christian disciplines that align it with the new spiritual nature that resides in your inner man, and you'll begin experiencing greater victory. Be encouraged.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Barb

Free will means they have the freedom to choose. If I am bound to a law or rule that says I cannot choose to disagree, then I don't have free will. Choice denotes free will, in my humble opinion.

Hi Barb, I agree that free will means having to the freedom to choose between this or that. For instance, that you can choose to serve God or not.

Here's a good sermon that addresses that.

https://whchurch.org/sermon/fatal-illusion/

[Barb]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Hi Barb, I agree that free will means having to the freedom to choose between this or that. For instance, that you can choose to serve God or not.

Here's a good sermon that addresses that.

https://whchurch.org/sermon/fatal-illusion/