Lee Stoneking Addresses UN

[shazeep]

i agree that humans consistently seek phrases, Acts 2:38, to make their position strong, when God consistently chooses the weak. The moment your pov becomes unassailable, you become useless to God. Humility is lost in this.

[mfblume]

Here's how you are not even reading my words, since you lack the entire concept of salvation by faith. Watch:

Originally Posted by shazeep

oh, i don't know--one less time than i state that you don't get to define these concepts for everyone else, i guess.

There it is right off the bat.

I say muslims are lost because Jesus said...

Joh 14:6 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And Peter said:

Act 4:10-12 KJV Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. (11) This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. (12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

And Paul said...

Php 2:8-11 KJV And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

...and you respond saying I AM DEFINING THOSE TERMS FOR EVERYONE ELSE. Meanwhile, you never once stop and state what those terms REALLY MEAN, to show I am wrong.

Shazeep, there's no way anyone can define those terms in any other way than to say Jesus is the ONLY WAY TO GOD. Please show me how they do not state that, instead of just saying I am defining those terms for everyone. Please show me HOW YOU define them,

The fact is, shazeep, and you can avoid it til the cows come home as you gave been, but those kinds of statements are stated in such a way that one cannot get diverse interpretations form them. All you can do is image there's another meaning, but likely admit you don't know it, because they'r such a narrow way of speaking that there's no room for varying interpretations. So, if I am wrong, show me how those verses are NOT stating what I claim they are, instead of making empty and unproved claims.

well, until you demonstrate that you really believe that, i'd say. Love disqualifies all your talk at the moment, if you even believe in your heart that someone else is deserving of your condemnation, Mr Blume.

Again, you claim a person cannot be loving if one says a religion's adherent are lost if they do not bow their knee and confess Jesus alone is Lord, and the name above every single name on earth under heaven. You claim a person is not loving when they merely repeat what Jesus, Peter and Paul said about who is saved. So, you're offbase from the get-go.

And then based upon that false assumption of what loving is not, you go further and make groundless claims that I am condemning when I am merely repeated what the bible says, from what you have no alternative interpretation while you claim mine is wrong.

You have a faulty understanding of what love is all about. And you discount explanations of scripture that allow for one to say a certain religion's adherents are all lost.

The fact is what your flesh does not LIKE is what you claim cannot be LOVE. It reminds me of the gay community saying Christians HATE because they state homosexuality is a sin. You are taking the basis of that same baseless worldly thinking. You do not LIKE the sound of what the bible said, so you make yourself think what it actually says, but are unable to state what it is, believing it simply cannot be what those who make your flesh feel bad say it believes.

You have yet to connect the two, at least in your speech. But again, you might be acting completely differently, i don't know.

Oh? You knew very well a few posts ago when you were able to judge my heart and its intentions by saying I only get from the bible what I want and not what God intends.

Did you ever stop to think you might be wrong about what you think love is? You certainly should, because you're putting a lot of stock into that issue and accusing everyone who does not have YOUR interpretation, which you do not even know what it is, (it just cannot be what I claim it is since it makes your flesh feel bad), to be hateful.

If/when you ever come to the realization that Muslims are not all lost, just because they have not gotten baptized according to your definitions (and not UPCI ones, or whatever), then please feel free to get back to me, and I'll see if i can't find some Scripture to absolve you

It goes back further than baptism. lol

Wow.

It goes back, Shazeep, to the simple point of Christ and the apostles stating HE ALONE IS LORD and every knee must bow to HIM and call HIM LORD, and PREACH HIM and no one or nothing else, and serve Him as the one who has the highest name in existence!

I am not even talking about baptism here. I am talking about what baptism stems from. I am talking about the FOUNDATION, Shazeep. JESUS. HE is the foundation. The chief cornerstone. THAT is denied by muslims. If not, then you and Walks in Islam repeat the words from your heart indicating you believe them, that Paul said in Philippians 2:

Php 2:8-11 KJV And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In place of every knee and every tongue, place YOUR name and confess each detail that Paul stated above. And show me in the Koran where Muhammed taught THOSE DETAILS.

Mr Blume, this presupposes that you have some divine interpretation of Scripture, that everyone must adhere to, or be lost. It is a purely self-serving, circular justification. Made with the best of intent, i understand that.

Pipe dreams.

I am stating Muslims do not believe the scriptures I quoted, and they're so simple to follow that NO DIVINE INTERPRATION IS NECESSARY.

And I will prove that by asking you to say what YOU BELIEVE they are saying and what is different from MY "intepretation", and then standing back and watching how you will not be able to give the interpretation that differs from mine. That's who I will prove you are wrong here. Unless you do nothing aside from giving us what those verses are saying that I am not in agreement with, then you're all talk here and speaking groundless statements.

I'll watch.

yes, and i am only relaying that my interpretation of the Bible can beat up your interpretation of the Bible every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

So far, you have not provided ONE SINGLE INTERPRETATION of ANY QUOTED VERSE I have quoted to show where I am wrong. Empty claims, Shazeep.

You interpret the Bible for everyone else; you might seek a better way.

Sorry, I do not.

In fact, like I have done with you, I ask you to read it for yourself and tell me what YOU believe in your heart it says. But so far you've not given one statement about what any verse in particular has to say in truth. So, what will it be? Will you tell me what Paul said in Philippians 2:8-11? Or give some excuse like you won't waste your time, and cop-out?

Those definitions that you are so convinced of, that you don't even examine them, might be useless now.

I examined the scriptures carefully, which is how I cam to propose what I do about them. But until you provide ONE INTERPRETATION from any of the verses I provided, proving to me they're NOT so easily understood as I claim they are, giving one LOTS OF ROOM to vary in interpretation, then your words are meaningless.

your point was evident at "Muslims are lost," Mr Blume. Your spirit was manifest in this statement, this belief. You insist that works cannot save you, and ignore that works can condemn you. Yes, i am a hypocrite.

Your entire concept of a person's spirit is faulty beyond description since you obviously got a distorted version based upon how your flesh dislikes certain statements. And you prove it over and again when you are unable to provide me with the alternate CORRECT interpretation for any verse I presented.

I won't hold my breath for your interpretation.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i agree that humans consistently seek phrases, Acts 2:38, to make their position strong, when God consistently chooses the weak. The moment your pov becomes unassailable, you become useless to God. Humility is lost in this.

More and more groundless statements. Nothing but groundless statements. It's not phrases. It is truths presented by the verses. Come on. What's taking you? Show me what those verses really mean in contrast to what I claim?

Waiting.

[mfblume]

Come on WALKS IN ISLAM. You explain those verses I quoted. Give what they REALLY mean. Produce, man. Produce something.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am sidestepping nothing. But you continue to show you believe works save us. The sheep from the goats issue is not determining what saves a person.

Do you agree that GOOD DEEDS occur AFTER we are saved, and that we are saved before any good deed has a chance to be accomplished by us?

the truth is FAITH THAT SAVES will WORK GOOD DEEDS. But we do not get saved by those good deeds. They only RESULT. Do you agree?

The sheep from the goats is the ONLY issue that, according to Jesus, saved these people

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Jesus, as I said, showed you the way. You choose that way or not. Jesus showed you to pray and fast. Jesus taught you about charity and in His parable he clearly showed that lack of charity condemns you. Jesus taught you that greed will deny you entry to paradise. Jesus did not teach you that a magic formula will save you.

If you do and follow what Jesus taught you, then you believe in Jesus yes?

This is what Jesus said:

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

In the same chapter, Jesus also said this:

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Does what you say sound anything like what Jesus said Blume? No, it does not.

This is in Old and New Testaments.

Ecclesiastes 12:

13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

II Cor 5 says it:

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Revelations 20 says it:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books

So many I can get tired of copying them. I have not shown you "what I believe", I have simply shown you what your own book says. Hopefully you see the difference? Do you even believe that Jesus was qualified to teach what could and would save men Blume? Then why do you insist that He was wrong? Is this not anti-Christ in spirit?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The sheep from the goats is the ONLY issue that, according to Jesus, saved these people

Context. You have to speak in context of everything else Jesus and the apostles stated, Which is why I presented to you passages for you to state whether or not you believe in them. teh works these sheep do follow their faith in Christ that saves. Works are necessary.

Tit 3:8 KJV This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

But they don't save us. What saves us and makes us righteous are God's WORKS of the cross. And we do good works BECAUSE we're saved. People who do not do what Jesus told the sheep they did not do are those who either backslid or never had faith in Christ's work of the cross to begin with.


Will you repeat these following words, with YOUR NAME inserted in them to say you agree with the bible?

Php 2:8-11 KJV And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Jesus, as I said, showed you the way. You choose that way or not.

Yes he did. And I explained WORKS FOLLOW salvation. So, yes or no, do you believe we are saved by the work of Jesus on the cross BEFORE WE GET A CHANCE TO DO ONE GOOD DEED?

Jesus showed you to pray and fast. Jesus taught you about charity and in His parable he clearly showed that lack of charity condemns you. Jesus taught you that greed will deny you entry to paradise. Jesus did not teach you that a magic formula will save you.

I agree. But Jesus also said no works we do can save us, but it's the works of HIMSELF.

If you do and follow what Jesus taught you, then you believe in Jesus yes?

I believe all He said. Do you?

This is what Jesus said:

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

In the same chapter, Jesus also said this:

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Does what you say sound anything like what Jesus said Blume? No, it does not.

I believe everything Jesus said. Show me what He said that I do not believe. If we spent time on those verses you'd see I preach and teach and practice them.

But I have give you verses that show God saves BY HIS GOOD WORKS, NOT OURS, and you have not responded once to those verses.

the all important detail you're repeatedly missing is that WORKS ARE INVOLVED, BUT ONLY AFTER God saves us BY HIS GOOD DEEDS of the cross, before we get a chance to do one good deed. When are you going to address that? That covers everything Jesus said that you quote.

This is in Old and New Testaments.

Ecclesiastes 12:

13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

But those good acts DO NOT SAVE US FROM SIN. You are not dealing with that statement

II Cor 5 says it:

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Revelations 20 says it:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books

So many I can get tired of copying them. I have not shown you "what I believe", I have simply shown you what your own book says. Hopefully you see the difference?

I agree with all those verses. But THE CONTEXT of them is the fact that GOOD WORKS FOLLOW true salvation and do not CAUSE salvation. Again, Jesus and the apostles taught we are saved BEFORE we get a chance to do one good deed. You disagree! By your continued avoidance of the scriptures that teach this truth you are showing more and more how you disagree with the Bible, because you can only work with it by detaching verses and passages from the overall concept presented in the entire Word that says GOD'S WORKS save us and not our good deeds.

Once again, explain these verses:

Eph 2:8-9 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 11:6 KJV And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Deeds FOLLOW salvation, but we are not SAVED BY GOOD DEEDS.

Rom 4:4-6 KJV Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Please explain them and how you agree with them. You and Shazeep are pros at the great sidestep and dodge.

[mfblume]

Islam is salvation by works.

Rom 4:6 KJV Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

What did Abraham do to be righteous?

Gen 15:5-6 KJV And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

What obedience do we perform to be made righteous?

Rom 5:19 KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[mfblume]

Rom 4:9 KJV Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Gen 15:5-6 KJV And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Islam denies these statements. Show me why they don't Shazeep and Walks, and don't just say I THINK I have some divine interpretation. Tell me what the correct interpretation is and how it varies from mine. Show me what parts of the verses I am denying and what they actually say and why I am wrong about them.

Abraham...

Rom 4:11 KJV And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

It's not doing good works that makes us righteous. Salvation by works of self is self-righteousness! You guys use the term "self-righteousness" but know nothing about it's real meaning, and actually preach self-righteousness!

[mfblume]

They asked Jesus what WORK should they do to have everlasting life.

Walks and Shazeep, what WORK gives us eternal life? What was Jesus' answer? What say you?

WORKS MUST FOLLOW salvation, and that's what you are reading about with sheep and goats. But what works actually SAVE US before judgment comes?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Context. You have to speak in context of everything else Jesus and the apostles stated, Which is why I presented to you passages for you to state whether or not you believe in them.

Will you repeat these words, with YOUR NAME inserted in them to say you agree with the bible?

Php 2:8-11 KJV And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes he did. And I explained WORKS FOLLOW salvation. So, yes or no, do you believe we are saved by the work of Jesus on the cross BEFORE WE GET A CHANCE TO DO ONE GOOD DEED?

I agree. But Jesus also said no works we do can save us, but it's the works of HIMSELF.

I believe all He said. Do you?

I believe everything Jesus said. Show me what He said that I do not believe. If we spent time on those verses you'd see I preach and teach and practice them.

But I have give you verses that show God saves BY HIS GOOD WORKS, NOT OURS, and you have not responded once to those verses.

the all important detail you're repeatedly missing is that WORKS ARE INVOLVED, BUT ONLY AFTER God saves us BY HIS GOOD DEEDS of the cross, before we get a chance to do one good deed. When are you going to address that? That covers everything Jesus said that you quote.



But those good acts DO NOT SAVE US FROM SIN. You are not dealing with that statement




I agree with all those verses. But THE CONTEXT of them is the fact that GOOD WORKS FOLLOW true salvation and do not CAUSE salvation. Again, Jesus and the apostles taught we are saved BEFORE we get a chance to do one good deed. You disagree! By your continued avoidance of the scriptures that teach this truth you are showing more and more how you disagree with the Bible, because you can only work with it by detaching verses and passages from the overall concept presented in the entire Word that says GOD'S WORKS save us and not our good deeds.

Once again, explain these verses:

Eph 2:8-9 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 11:6 KJV And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Deeds FOLLOW salvation, but we are not SAVED BY GOOD DEEDS.

Rom 4:4-6 KJV Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Please explain them and how you agree with them. You and Shazeep are pros at the great sidestep and dodge.

I quote Jesus, and you quote letters from someone who never actually experienced His teaching. Nice.

You also seem upset, why? I left out no context. The tone of your posts is that of an interrogator at the Inquisition. Guess that never left you folks did it. "Say it!" You should hear yourself. LOL

I do not believe that your interpretation of these passages is "truth" and I do not acknowledge you as qualified to define what is "truth" or not "truth" to me, as you seem to acknowledge yourself. I do not acknowledge letters written to various churches that contradict what Jesus taught as "inspired"

You do not have an answer to verses that are attributed to Jesus that I posted out of your bible to demonstrate my points, as per your request to use them.

So that leaves you one option really. As a true believer, and as per your own view of yourself, and your own criteria, you must now drink deadly poison to demonstrate that you are a true believer, as per your list of "signs of true believers" while ridiculing Muslims above. Please tape this and have someone post it here (and on YouTube) for us, and it was nice knowing you. Really. A treat.