Firearms Refresher Course

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Mat 5:40-42

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

It looks like you must allow the offence to happen while praying for the offenders. I remember a preacher who preached that Paul when he was Saul must have had a lot of those he persecuted tell him, "Brother Saul, we are praying for you, we know Brother Saul that the Lord Jesus wants you too to be saved." I thought that was awesome.

While he was a trinitarian, The book "Tortured for Christ" a book about the imprisonment of Richard Wurmbrand, is a very inspiring story of what took place behind the iron curtain in Romania with the war prisoners.

BTW - Voice of the Martyrs gives this book away free of charge.

[Hoovie]

VOM is a good ministry and that is a great book.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Excuse me but language is language, it doesn't matter what I feel the definition is I must except the true meaning of words. If you are saying that a person is being attacked, and then you attack the attacker, both of you are engaged in what is called mortal combat, which means fighting to the death. Why? Because you have told us that you would fight with intent to use deadly force. You're no longer trying to prevent anything because preventative is before the fact and not after. During the crime you will be in the vengeance mode. Let's understand the word, vengeance means...

That is not true. If someone is trying to kill someone else and you engage them to get them off and try to keep them from doing more harm, you are the defender. That it might be sustained does not make you now the attacker nor does it make it retribution.

Vengeance \Venge"ance\, n. [F. vengeance, fr. venger to avenge,
L. vindicare to lay claim to, DEFEND, avenge, fr. vindex a claimant, defender, avenger, the first part of which is of
uncertain origin, and the last part akin to dicere to say.
See Diction, and cf. Avenge, Revenge, Vindicate.]
1. Punishment inflicted in return for an injury or an
offense; retribution; -- often, in a bad sense, passionate
or unrestrained revenge.

As far as Webster’s' 1913 dictionary is concerned what the Bible speaks against is exactly what you claim is right and good for a Christian to defend their families with deadly force.

The definition of the word there is Punishment inflicted in return for an injury or an
offense; retribution; -- often, in a bad sense, passionate
or unrestrained revenge.

Other dictionaries concur too.

www.dictionary.com
to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, esp. in a resentful or vindictive spirit: He revenged his murdered brother. 2.to take vengeance for; inflict punishment for; avenge: He revenged his brother's murder. –verb (used without object) 3.to take revenge. –noun 4.the act of revenging; retaliation for injuries or wrongs; vengeance. 5.something done in vengeance. 6.the desire to revenge; vindictiveness. 7.an opportunity to retaliate or gain satisfaction.

Vengeance in the bible from the greek word means retribution.

retribution

1382, "repayment," from L. retributionem (nom. retributio) "recompense, repayment," from retributus, pp. of retribuere "hand back, repay," from re- "back" + tribuere "to assign, allot" (see tribute). Sense of "evil given for evil done" is from day of retribution (1526) in Christian theology, the time of divine reward or punishment.

And Im looking at dictionary.com which has several sources and not one gives as a definition "defend" for vengeance. Some of these words and definitions are obsolete though as languages and definitions change over time

Vengeance is the Lord's ONLY, and not ours. Those people in 1913 would have disagreed with you when they looked in their dictionaries and found that to defend someone in mortal combat is retaliating in vengeance. Therefore it is not what Jesus sanctioned.

I agree, payback or retribution is His only. However if we really take that to it's logical conclusion that might also mean we should oppose jail time and the death penalty...

To stop someone or something is not using deadly force, but simply stopping something that has been placed in motion. I stop my car; I stop a child from running out in the street, and stop an angry husband from putting his fist through a car window. Stopping someone or something is far from using deadly force.

As I said before, if you have to use violence to stop someone you may end up harming them or killing them. As I said before, I would opt for stopping them without killing them, but if they died as a result that does not mean you murdered them or committed vengeance.

The law enforcement agent is not going out with this in mind everyday. The main focus of the officer is NOT to get into a situation at all cost. This must be the main focus.

yes I know, that is my point. But they know that it CAN happen and it does happen

Even a solider while around civilians in a foreign land must keep as a main focus that to make sure that nothing they do with cause a situation to escalate. True prevention to make sure that every precaution is made before a situation gets out of hand. If we stay focused on Jesus Christ while the winds and waves are contrary He will be able to pull us out.

Yup but that does not mean there are never situations where the only way to stop someone from harming another is to resort to violence and that does not prevent the possibilty of death occuring as a result.

Oh my lands!!! Where do you live? Bagdad?

yes, Bagdad USA

[RandyWayne]

It looks like you must allow the offence to happen while praying for the offenders. I remember a preacher who preached that Paul when he was Saul must have had a lot of those he persecuted tell him, "Brother Saul, we are praying for you, we know Brother Saul that the Lord Jesus wants you too to be saved." I thought that was awesome.

Except were talking about family, not ourselves. I will be praying for the perp.... As I am slinging lead at him.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

The only deficit is in you and those who are "amening" you posting scriptures to back what you are 'saying' is SO BIBLICAL. Now, who is going to be the first to offer some kind of scriptural response to show where the Bible says we are wrong? If we are so out of touch with the Bible, PLEASE show us with the Bible.

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

If you cannot see the difference between an isolated incident of armed assault, robbery, home intrusion, or rape, and systematic persecution of an ethnic or religious minority . . .

. . . then I cannot help you understand what I wrote earlier.

Similarly, if one cannot see the difference between defensive forceful intervention and retaliation, I cannot help them, either.

StMatthew makes a good point, however it doesn't have much application to the situation where the man of the house is physically challenged, or otherwise limited in his abilities to wrestle with an enraged or drug-hyped man.

But look at the progress you all have finally made last night! Some have finally understood Praxeas' point well enough to break it down for some etymology. At last, a reduction in the communication deficit!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Within these scriptures you have a lot that are directly referring to retribution or pay back, which is not just about physical violence.

The reason why this discussion is pointless and getting nowhere is because you keep posting scriptures that address retribution or payback, not self defense or protecting family. Those are not the same things. This has happened over and over and over and over and over and over from the beginning. I'm not sure if you just don't understand the difference or just don't care. But when that happens it really just reduces the conversation to redundant repetitions on both our parts.

Please explain how you killing an attacker before he kills is NOT retribution or pay back? Here is what my Thesaurus lists as synonyms for retribution:

retribution noun
The act of retaliating: counteraction, counterattack, counterblow, reciprocation, reprisal, requital, retaliation, revenge, tit for tat, vengeance. Idioms: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, like for like , measure for measure .

Let's see what Random House has to say about some of these bolded words:

counteraction: to act in opposition to; frustrate by contrary action.
counterattack: an attack made as an offset or reply to another attack.
counterblow: a blow given in return or retaliation, as in boxing.
reciprocation: a returning, usually for something given.

Random House shows your word 'retribution' does include the act of 'self defense.' Did you notice that?

NOW let's look how Random House defines your word, "Self defense"

Self Defense: the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant

"Countering"? As in counteraction, counterattack, or counterblow?

You seem to be missing (or avoiding ) the whole point. Where does the Bible say that you can kill in the way you claim? WHERE? You have said your position is SO BIBLICAL, and our's is so unbiblical, so where's YOUR SCRIPTURES? Please list them for all to read.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Self defense is preventative. Defending someone else is the act of preventing or stoping a violent action. Coming on the scene AFTER the fact and then going to that person and blowing their brains out is vengeance or retribution. I have made this point several times now.

How much time should pass before one becomes the other?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

To paraphrase a bit from memory, "The way I saw it, by shooting at them I was saving lives." -Sgt York

To paraphrase a bit, "The way is see it, to die to your own will is the saving of your soul." -Jesus Christ

Or to quote Jesus:
Mark 8:34-38
(34) And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
(35) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
(36) For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
(37) Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
(38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Law enforcement often end up stoping crimes in the proces of being committed. They often have to subdue individuals by violent force. And if they feel their life is threatened can use deadly force. I have seen many times a guy was driving towards a cop in his car and the officer felt his life was being threatened. He and the other cops open fire to kill so they can stop him from continuing being a threat

The police ARE the ones to do this. But again, we are not talking about secular departments; we are talking about the Church of Jesus Christ. Where is the Church said to be the ones called upon to come charging in with guns blazing?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Stephen,

This is the biblical and balanced approach.

No matter how much it is said that it is not retribution, one cannot fulfill the commandment to "Love you enemies" and take hostile actions that take their life in the process.

AMEN!