Anyone Here Believe In Soul Sleep?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Beard,Yes our Spirit has all knowledge with out the body. My spirit came out of my body one day.I was laying on the bed ane the ceiling started comming closer and closer,well it scared me and I looked down and seen my wife and my body laying on the bed.Then I grabbed a hold of my wife and pulled my spirit down into my body.When we die and our body goes to the grave it has no knowledge.Our spirit goes to the Lord with all knowledge of what is going on.We know we are in heaven with the Lord weighting for the resurrection.Our spirit is transparent and looks just like our body.I believe our soul is our mind and stays with our spirit.

Hmmmmm.............wow. Ok.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Hmmmmm.............wow. Ok.

I was thinking the same exact thing.

[BrotherEastman]

Hey Michael, have you read any of Josephus's writings? Josephus gives a dissertation of hades. I just read this dissertation, he seems to beleive that the souls of men do not actually sleep. Do you give him credibility?

[Michael The Disciple]

Josephus was a historian. I would trust him on that more than his spiritual views. It is not a sure fact that he believed in Yeshua as the Messiah. The things he did say about Hades are not written in scripture.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Beard

Hey Brother Michael...
All is well here...
you have been on my heart...
been praying for you and your family...
God bless

spirits of just men made perfect...not bodies of just men made perfect...
the question is: "Does the spirit have cognitive knowledge of its own, or only if is in a body comprising a soul?"

how can a person being absent from the body as Paul was, who was caught up to the third heaven, see things in their spirit and understand them without utilizing the brain as the organ for the soul? intuition or things known in the spirit is within the spirit of the person as knowledge gained without the intellect of the mind

then why the resurrection from the dead body if the spirit is already in heaven some will ask?
Dominion was given to man...and only a man has dominion in the earth; that is, a spirit within a body comprising a soul. The heaven belongs to the Lord, but the earth He has given to the children of men. Therefore the body will be the seed for the heavenly body that will be just like Jesus body after the resurrection. There was only one heaven in the beginning when God made the heaven and the earth; there are now three. When the New Jerusalem as the bride of Christ comes down from heaven to earth, again there will be only one heaven; Jesus being the King over heaven and earth; spirits in heaven being joined back to their bodies in the earth bringing in the kingdom of heaven.The interim between the death of the body and the resurrection of the body does not impair the spirit of the person having understanding, reason, and cognitive ability.

Here are the spirits of just men in heaven making inquiry of the Lord. "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." (Revelation 6:10,11). It is clear that the spirit is not asleep, for the soul does not sleep with the body in the grave.


again, I appreciate your knowledge of the Word

Hi,I believe there are 10 heavens.Read the first few chapters. http://www.goodnewsinc.net/othbooks/secrets.html

[Lafon]

I believe this issue entails a much, much greater depth of research than has been given it to this point, and must begin with our gaining a better understanding of God's creation of man. The general thinking is that when God created mankind, He first created Adam, afterwards Eve, and has continued this act of creation with the birth of each individual since. This widely accepted scenario has God constantly busy with creating mankind, for while I am no expert on the matter I do know that somewhere upon the earth a new child emerges from its mother's womb with each passing moment.

But is this really what the creation of mankind is all about? I think not! In fact, when Moses wrote that God created man (kind) in His own image, he was referring to the eternal, invisible soul of man, for it is this component of each of us which is created "after His likeness." After God's creation of this element of man (and I believe that He created the souls of all mankind at that moment), He then took a substantive matter, that is to say the "dust of the ground," with which He formed a physical place wherein the soul of man would reside. And then, to enable these two components of man to operate in complete unision and harmony, God instilled the "breath of life" from Himself into man's body, after which the soul (which, at its creation was an inanimate, non-living entity), to become a "living" thing.

At the moment of the death of man God causes the "breath of life" (translated as "spirit") to be removed from man's body, at which time the eternal, invisible soul immediately returns to that same state in which it had reality before it became a "living" entity. In His "righteousness" (that is to say, "equality" of treatment unto all of His creation), God has decreed that the eternal, invisible soul of man would remain in this "temporarily suspended" condition of existence (called "soul-sleep") until the arrival of that moment in the future when it would be resurrected and stand before Him in judgment.

To suggest or assert that the eternal, invisible soul of man becomes separate from the body at death, immediately entering into either a place of rest or punishment, depending of course upon the merits of the live of the individual while alive upon the earth, clearly violates the "righteousness" of God. Why? Simply because Satan and his wicked band are presently being held in chains of darkness, where there they are reserved for the judgment at the last day. Since these were first in rebellion against God, then would it not represent a violation of God's "righteousness" for Him to impose punishment upon man because of his disobedience, which would exceeds that which awaits Satan and his wicked band?

Yes, I believe that there is much, much more to this issue than we have understood heretofore, and rather than to allow carnal thinking to cloud the truth about this we should first seek to discover what the Bible reveals.

Just some of my thoughts for consideration.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Defined like this:

At death we do not go straight to Heaven and stand before Yeshua. Rather we go to the grave where we "sleep" or wait until the resurrection. Then we are raised from death and receive eternal life.

Dont know if I am up to a full debate of it right now but interested to know if anyone else believes it. Thanks

I do not believe in this. To me, the reference of Paul saying that his absence from the body would be presence with the Lord shows that in Paul's day, soul sleep was not a reality.

[mfblume]

Amen, soul is not spirit.

[mfblume]

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJV (6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:22-24 KJV (22) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. (23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (24) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.


...Seems to prove soul sleep to be error. Those who believe soul sleep, what is your response to the above passage? Why did Paul claim that HE, personally, would be absent from the body and present with the Lord should he die?

[mfblume]

So your belief is that the soul first gains immortality at death

No. The SOUL DOES NOT GAIN immortality at death. I never said that nor ever believed that. The soul gains immortality AT SALVATION! We have eternal life when we have Jesus! So the soul leaves the body at death and the body sleeps. The soul iis conscious and present with the Lord. I see no hint of unconscious sleeping of the soul in 2 Cor 5 or 1 Cor 15.

then later the body gets it at resurrection.

The body becomes immortal at the resurrection, yes. But the soul received immortality at salvation.

I see nothing like that in 1 Cor. 15. Matter of fact in the ENTIRE CHAPTER there is not one mention of having LIFE APART FROM the resurrection of the dead.

2 Cor 5 shows life apart from the resurrection of the dead. We have to put the information of 2 Cor 5 together with 1 Cor 15. 2 Cor 5 says that IN THIS BODY we groan. We groan for an immortal body, because the mortal weakens as time passes, and we know it will expire in death. 1 Cor 15 says that the trumpet will see our bodies CHANGED when the mortality puts on immortality. The dead in Christ are changed in body at that point, and not upon death, as well as the living in Christ. And back in 2 Cor 5 we read that before the trumpet sounds, and we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. This is LIFE outside the body!

So the information in 2 Cor 5 concerning absence from the body OCCURS BEFORE the trumpet sounds in 1 Cor 15. We are not absent from the body when the trumpet sounds, because our BODIES shall be CHANGED. Again, this is not at the point of death that the change occurs. So between the time the death occurs and the trumpet sounds to provide immortal bodies, ONE IS ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD. If there was no consciousness during this time lapse between death and resurrection, then it would not say we are present with the Lord.

Paul told us that absence from the body and presence with the Lord WAS MUCH MORE DESIRABLE than remaining in the body groaning. Was he saying it was more desirable to SLEEP than be conscious in a body that makes us groan? I think not! It was more desirous to BE WITH THE LORD, which makes no sense unless it was a CONSCIOUS presence with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-23 KJV (21) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. (22) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. (23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:


Again, that is the same thing noted in 2 Cor 5:

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He was not saying he was more willing to SLEEP! Nothing about sleep is mentioned. We ONLY read that we are PRESENT WITH THE LORD, or WITH CHRIST. I do not think that is sleeping at all.

Here is the BACKBONE of Pauls teaching which agrees with 2 Cor. 5 btw.

16: For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19: If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor. 15:16-22

Verse 18 indicates APART FROM THE RESURRECTION those who have FALLEN ASLEEP in Christ have PERISHED.

"SLEEP" refers ONLY TO BODY and not soul or spirit. I know that because Paul spoke of being present with the Lord. If death causes the soul to sleep, then there is no awareness of BEING WITH THE LORD. The BODY sleeps. the soul is present with the Lord.

Verse 20 indicates Christ was the FIRSTFRUITS OF THOSE WHO SLEPT.

Verse 22 gives the thunderous truth that the DEAD ARE NOT ALIVE TILL THE RESURRECTION!

Again, SLEEP only refers to the BODY. If the body is not changed or changing after death, since the trumpet has not yet sounded, but IT WILL RISE IN CHANGE at the trumpet, then what better way to say this than to say THE BODY SLEEPS? Everytime we read about the BODY involved in a resurrection, we read the term SLEEP. Why? Because it refers to the soul? No, the BODY is the subject. But when we read nothing about the BODY, when reading about death, there is no mention of sleep. For that reason, Paul spoke of a man, likely himself, above 14 years prior who ascended into the third heaven. He said he was not sure if he was in the body or out of the body. If Paul preached soul sleep, then he would NEVER HAVE SAID WITHOUT THE BODY. And that counts for whether or not it was himself. Paul believed ONE COULD BE CONSCIOUS WITHOUT (outside) THE BODY. That would be impossible if soul sleep was involved.

The dead are NOT alive until the resurrection. That is Pauls bottom line.

Agreed, BUT IN BODY ONLY. BODY is the subject.

The thought of the Christian being alive in Heaven without a spiritual body sitting around groaning for several thousand years waiting for it is almost comical! Never heard that one before.

The groaning DOES NOT OCCUR WITHOUT THE BODY. Paul said IN THE TABERNACLE WE GROAN. Where did you get the idea that groaning occurs OUTSIDE this tabernacle? You overlooked 2 Cor 5:2 and verse 4.

When the time of the dead comes to be judged at the LAST TRUMP they are given their rewards. They will be rejoicing not sitting around groaning in Heaven!

You completely overlook the fact that the groaning ONLY OCCURS in this mortal body. Not outside of it. We must consider ALL the scriptures and not overlook details as you have done, I believe.

Sorry, I am even more convinced now that soul sleep proponents missed and overlooked important details. You failed to even notice that the groaning only occurs IN the mortal body.