Why Imply No Tongues = No Salvation?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

The Bible states that the jailer had the Word of the Lord spoken to him and he and his household were baptized... and rejoiced because he and his household believed in God.

It's a stretch to believe that the jailer and his household spoke in tongues at this encounter.

It's also a stretch to teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from being born again.

Faith is a stretch.

We believe the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the new birth.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

We believe the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the new birth.

This is a circular discussion.


I know why I left the UPCI.
I love my former Pastor.
The Lord knows I miss him, his sermons, and his influence over my life.

I love the plain and simple truths of God's Word more.

No church is perfect. I'm not perfect. I just know that when I left the Apostolics, it was out of commitment to the plain and simple truths of God's Word.

I will hold on to God's Word.
Right or wrong, all I can do is hope for God's Grace and Mercy anyway.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

This is a circular discussion.


I know why I left the UPCI.
I love my former Pastor.
The Lord knows I miss him, his sermons, and his influence over my life.

I love the plain and simple truths of God's Word more.

No church is perfect. I'm not perfect. I just know that when I left the Apostolics, it was out of commitment to the plain and simple truths of God's Word.

I will hold on to God's Word.
Right or wrong, all I can do is hope for God's Grace and Mercy anyway.

I don't want to get personal but since you have bared you heart why don't you go back home I think you want to. I will be praying for you I promise.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

The Bible states that the jailer had the Word of the Lord spoken to him and he and his household were baptized... and rejoiced because he and his household believed in God.

It's a stretch to believe that the jailer and his household spoke in tongues at this encounter.

It's also a stretch to teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from being born again.

Faith is a stretch.

But where does the text specifically state the jailer "repented" (methuo):______________?

There was a perfectly serviceable verb available, which NT writers readily employed elsewhere, had this taken place.

Point is, arguing from silence cuts both ways.

And, you are exactly right, there is no "separate experience(s)" of Spirit baptism and salvation.

If we don't have the one....we don't have the other according to God's Word.

Blessings anyway!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by rdp

But where does the text specifically state the jailer "repented" (methuo):______________?

There was a perfectly serviceable verb available, which NT writers readily employed elsewhere, had this taken place.

Point is, arguing from silence cuts both ways.

And, you are exactly right, there is no "separate experience(s)" of Spirit baptism and salvation.

If we don't have the one....we don't have the other according to God's Word.

Blessings anyway!

Yep.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I don't want to get personal but since you have bared you heart why don't you go back home I think you want to. I will be praying for you I promise.

You know what Sir? You're right. I do want to return to my old church. I don't like my AOG church all that much any more. Great people. Nice sermons. A billion ways to connect and get to know others and serve and do. But lately, I feel like I'm stagnant. Then the sins of my past try to grab hold of me, bringing more discouragement. The really GREAT thing about the AOG church is the openess and transparency that is encouraged so that when I do fall, there are people there that I can confide in with the confidence that they're not talking about my failures to others, or looking at me as if I'm not a Christian at all.

I never experienced that before at any other church that I've attended anywhere in the world-- UCPI, Church of Christ, WOTCC, or COGIC.

The stagnation I'm talking about can mostly be addressed by my actions away from the church, in every day life. Consistent prayer and fasting, discipline in what I place before my eyes and most importantly for me, discipline in my thought life. These are things that I am making subject to the Name of Jesus. As I make more progress in these personal areas, my perception will change for the better, I am sure.

But man oh man, what I would give to have the Holy Ghost break out in just one of our services! These people are missing out on so much and frankly, I'm bored and really wanting to experience GOD like that again at my current church. Hungry? No, starving!

I guess everyone else who has left "the mothership" just gets used to things being different. I am sure there are explanations that work well for them, but at 1:30am there is nothing more that I want in this moment than to KNOW that when I go to church this Wednesday night, there will be a move of God at my church-- one where the people of God are praising and worshiping the Lord for an extended period, where people start to dance in the Spirit and just praise the Lord until!

Maybe I'm just such a baby in Christ to want this to happen at my church-- so immature that I don't realize that my desire is selfish and unnecessary. Oh Well. I'm spoiled rotten, but I know what I'm missing out on and I'll never forget what I've already experienced!

It's like being a single guy introduced to a good woman, only to realize in frustration that there's no spark, no chemistry.


Rhetorically, do you know what it is like to be in love? Do you know what it is like to lose yourself in praise? Do you know what it is like to dance under the influence of the Holy Spirit while knowing that you're not the one moving your legs? Do you know what it is like to leap for joy so much more higher than what you could ever do while driving in for a lay up?

Yes I want to be in a church where the Lord could and maybe even would move like this at least once a year.

However, I don't want this at the sacrifice of the truth of God's Word.

The Holy Ghost baptism is for all believers, but salvation is by grace through faith. The "New Birth" happens at faith-- regeneration by the Word of God. Everything else that follows, flows from a heart that has been converted by the Power of the preached Word of God. The signs will follow those who believe and the point of salvation is not at the manifestation of the signs, but at the point of faith.

This difference is not a small difference.

[Farfel]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

You know what Sir? You're right. I do want to return to my old church. I don't like my AOG church all that much any more. Great people. Nice sermons. A billion ways to connect and get to know others and serve and do. But lately, I feel like I'm stagnant. Then the sins of my past try to grab hold of me, bringing more discouragement. The really GREAT thing about the AOG church is the openess and transparency that is encouraged so that when I do fall, there are people there that I can confide in with the confidence that they're not talking about my failures to others, or looking at me as if I'm not a Christian at all.

I never experienced that before at any other church that I've attended anywhere in the world-- UCPI, Church of Christ, WOTCC, or COGIC.

The stagnation I'm talking about can mostly be addressed by my actions away from the church, in every day life. Consistent prayer and fasting, discipline in what I place before my eyes and most importantly for me, discipline in my thought life. These are things that I am making subject to the Name of Jesus. As I make more progress in these personal areas, my perception will change for the better, I am sure.

But man oh man, what I would give to have the Holy Ghost break out in just one of our services! These people are missing out on so much and frankly, I'm bored and really wanting to experience GOD like that again at my current church. Hungry? No, starving!

I guess everyone else who has left "the mothership" just gets used to things being different. I am sure there are explanations that work well for them, but at 1:30am there is nothing more that I want in this moment than to KNOW that when I go to church this Wednesday night, there will be a move of God at my church-- one where the people of God are praising and worshiping the Lord for an extended period, where people start to dance in the Spirit and just praise the Lord until!

Maybe I'm just such a baby in Christ to want this to happen at my church-- so immature that I don't realize that my desire is selfish and unnecessary. Oh Well. I'm spoiled rotten, but I know what I'm missing out on and I'll never forget what I've already experienced!

It's like being a single guy introduced to a good woman, only to realize in frustration that there's no spark, no chemistry.


Rhetorically, do you know what it is like to be in love? Do you know what it is like to lose yourself in praise? Do you know what it is like to dance under the influence of the Holy Spirit while knowing that you're not the one moving your legs? Do you know what it is like to leap for joy so much more higher than what you could ever do while driving in for a lay up?

Yes I want to be in a church where the Lord could and maybe even would move like this at least once a year.

However, I don't want this at the sacrifice of the truth of God's Word.

The Holy Ghost baptism is for all believers, but salvation is by grace through faith. The "New Birth" happens at faith-- regeneration by the Word of God. Everything else that follows, flows from a heart that has been converted by the Power of the preached Word of God. The signs will follow those who believe and the point of salvation is not at the manifestation of the signs, but at the point of faith.

This difference is not a small difference.

Great post! Often times, we seek God for what He can do, rather than who He is. Hang in there.

[Michael The Disciple]

Hi JD,

You said:

The Holy Ghost baptism is for all believers, but salvation is by grace through faith.

Think about it. This is believing the Holy Spirit baptism is OPTIONAL. Its up to us if we want it or we dont and apparently Jesus is ok with us saying no. Hmmmmm.......

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

You know what Sir? You're right. I do want to return to my old church. I don't like my AOG church all that much any more. Great people. Nice sermons. A billion ways to connect and get to know others and serve and do. But lately, I feel like I'm stagnant. Then the sins of my past try to grab hold of me, bringing more discouragement. The really GREAT thing about the AOG church is the openess and transparency that is encouraged so that when I do fall, there are people there that I can confide in with the confidence that they're not talking about my failures to others, or looking at me as if I'm not a Christian at all.

I never experienced that before at any other church that I've attended anywhere in the world-- UCPI, Church of Christ, WOTCC, or COGIC.

The stagnation I'm talking about can mostly be addressed by my actions away from the church, in every day life. Consistent prayer and fasting, discipline in what I place before my eyes and most importantly for me, discipline in my thought life. These are things that I am making subject to the Name of Jesus. As I make more progress in these personal areas, my perception will change for the better, I am sure.

But man oh man, what I would give to have the Holy Ghost break out in just one of our services! These people are missing out on so much and frankly, I'm bored and really wanting to experience GOD like that again at my current church. Hungry? No, starving!

I guess everyone else who has left "the mothership" just gets used to things being different. I am sure there are explanations that work well for them, but at 1:30am there is nothing more that I want in this moment than to KNOW that when I go to church this Wednesday night, there will be a move of God at my church-- one where the people of God are praising and worshiping the Lord for an extended period, where people start to dance in the Spirit and just praise the Lord until!

Maybe I'm just such a baby in Christ to want this to happen at my church-- so immature that I don't realize that my desire is selfish and unnecessary. Oh Well. I'm spoiled rotten, but I know what I'm missing out on and I'll never forget what I've already experienced!

It's like being a single guy introduced to a good woman, only to realize in frustration that there's no spark, no chemistry.


Rhetorically, do you know what it is like to be in love? Do you know what it is like to lose yourself in praise? Do you know what it is like to dance under the influence of the Holy Spirit while knowing that you're not the one moving your legs? Do you know what it is like to leap for joy so much more higher than what you could ever do while driving in for a lay up?

Yes I want to be in a church where the Lord could and maybe even would move like this at least once a year.

However, I don't want this at the sacrifice of the truth of God's Word.

The Holy Ghost baptism is for all believers, but salvation is by grace through faith. The "New Birth" happens at faith-- regeneration by the Word of God. Everything else that follows, flows from a heart that has been converted by the Power of the preached Word of God. The signs will follow those who believe and the point of salvation is not at the manifestation of the signs, but at the point of faith.

This difference is not a small difference.

Go home and do not delay. The Holy Ghost is dealing with you.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

You know what Sir? You're right. I do want to return to my old church. I don't like my AOG church all that much any more. Great people. Nice sermons. A billion ways to connect and get to know others and serve and do. But lately, I feel like I'm stagnant. Then the sins of my past try to grab hold of me, bringing more discouragement. The really GREAT thing about the AOG church is the openess and transparency that is encouraged so that when I do fall, there are people there that I can confide in with the confidence that they're not talking about my failures to others, or looking at me as if I'm not a Christian at all.

I never experienced that before at any other church that I've attended anywhere in the world-- UCPI, Church of Christ, WOTCC, or COGIC.

The stagnation I'm talking about can mostly be addressed by my actions away from the church, in every day life. Consistent prayer and fasting, discipline in what I place before my eyes and most importantly for me, discipline in my thought life. These are things that I am making subject to the Name of Jesus. As I make more progress in these personal areas, my perception will change for the better, I am sure.

But man oh man, what I would give to have the Holy Ghost break out in just one of our services! These people are missing out on so much and frankly, I'm bored and really wanting to experience GOD like that again at my current church. Hungry? No, starving!

I guess everyone else who has left "the mothership" just gets used to things being different. I am sure there are explanations that work well for them, but at 1:30am there is nothing more that I want in this moment than to KNOW that when I go to church this Wednesday night, there will be a move of God at my church-- one where the people of God are praising and worshiping the Lord for an extended period, where people start to dance in the Spirit and just praise the Lord until!

Maybe I'm just such a baby in Christ to want this to happen at my church-- so immature that I don't realize that my desire is selfish and unnecessary. Oh Well. I'm spoiled rotten, but I know what I'm missing out on and I'll never forget what I've already experienced!

It's like being a single guy introduced to a good woman, only to realize in frustration that there's no spark, no chemistry.


Rhetorically, do you know what it is like to be in love? Do you know what it is like to lose yourself in praise? Do you know what it is like to dance under the influence of the Holy Spirit while knowing that you're not the one moving your legs? Do you know what it is like to leap for joy so much more higher than what you could ever do while driving in for a lay up?

Yes I want to be in a church where the Lord could and maybe even would move like this at least once a year.

However, I don't want this at the sacrifice of the truth of God's Word.

The Holy Ghost baptism is for all believers, but salvation is by grace through faith. The "New Birth" happens at faith-- regeneration by the Word of God. Everything else that follows, flows from a heart that has been converted by the Power of the preached Word of God. The signs will follow those who believe and the point of salvation is not at the manifestation of the signs, but at the point of faith.

This difference is not a small difference.

Don't sacrifice what you know to be truth for a few goosebumps and an emotional experience.