Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

[Abiding Now]

Poor Jesus he failed so many lost folks for CENTURIES.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

You made all my points.

OPs totally misunderstand the basic message of scripture, thus think they are the only true church and have no witness in history because no one prior to the 20th century had their unique private interpretation.

Not ALL OPs.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Not ALL OPs.

True.

[Esaias]

So... the church then is not a definite local assembly of believers? But rather an iinvisiblembership list of individuals? Often based solely upon whether or not the individual believes in Jesus (however defined)?

Honestly I find that hard to believe. It seems to be counter to the teaching of the Bible. Regardless of what constitutes correct theology vs heresy does not the bible indicate the church is an assembly of God's people? An actual assembly?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok I'll ask this of you. Point out the true Church in history. This should be interesting.

One can't... the weeds and the tares grow together.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So... the church then is not a definite local assembly of believers? But rather an iinvisiblembership list of individuals? Often based solely upon whether or not the individual believes in Jesus (however defined)?

Honestly I find that hard to believe. It seems to be counter to the teaching of the Bible. Regardless of what constitutes correct theology vs heresy does not the bible indicate the church is an assembly of God's people? An actual assembly?

See Aquila's answer.

I find it even harder to believe is a definite local assembly of believers, and much more difficult to believe that such an assembly has an unbroken line back to Christ and the apostles.

There has always been a church, but not only one name (catholic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc). The only "name" that unifies the church is Jesus.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

See Aquila's answer.

I find it even harder to believe is a definite local assembly of believers, and much more difficult to believe that such an assembly has an unbroken line back to Christ and the apostles.

There has always been a church, but not only one name (catholic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc). The only "name" that unifies the church is Jesus.

Can this be demonstrated by scripture?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

See Aquila's answer.

I find it even harder to believe is a definite local assembly of believers, and much more difficult to believe that such an assembly has an unbroken line back to Christ and the apostles.

There has always been a church, but not only one name (catholic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc). The only "name" that unifies the church is Jesus.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can this be demonstrated by scripture?

Yes...

Matthew 13:27-30 English Standard Version (ESV)
27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Also...

1 Corinthians 11:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

There will always be false teachings and heresies among the true believers. In fact, it is these heresies that allow those who truly know Scripture to be made manifest. We see this throughout Christian history... even in times of great apostasy.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes...

Matthew 13:27-30 English Standard Version (ESV)
27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Does this not teach that in world there are sons of God and also sons of the wicked one, and that the wicked will be cast out and burned but the righteous will inherit the kingdom? How can this be teaching "the Lord will have no identifiable ekklesia until Judgement Day"? Seems quite a stretch to get that from the text.

Also...

1 Corinthians 11:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Paul wrote to a definite assembly and says there are divisions and factions (heresies) among them. Nevertheless it cannot be denied he was speaking to a definite local apostolic assembly of believers.