Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[shazeep]

personally i would think that a simple examination of the Pharisee's prayer v the sinner's prayer would put paid to any thoughts of "they are all lost."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, "Love one another" and "forgive, and you will be forgiven" are despicable, and hideous, huh. You don't think it would be more instructive to examine "everyone who does not believe like me is lost," or is your position now that that describes me, who is suggesting that the Good Samaritan is saved?

Loving people and forgiving them has nothing to do with the fact we need to tell everyone, muslim or not, that they need to get saved by acknowledging the death of Christ on the cross as the only means to eternal life, or be lost.

I do not withhold love and forgiveness from muslims who reject the cross! If I do, then how?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

personally i would think that a simple examination of the Pharisee's prayer v the sinner's prayer would put paid to any thoughts of "they are all lost."

By "simple", do you mean a scant reference and quote and then not touching it again?

Let's look at the passage.

Luk 18:10-14 KJV Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. (11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. (12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. (14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The pharisee bragged about HIS WORKS and how he achieved God's favour by fasting and giving tithes.

The publican had nothing to brag about, having been an extortioner only to be accompanied with adulterers and the unjust.

The publican came to God by confessing he is a sinner, and has nothing to bring before God to justify what he felt should make God accept him as righteous. He confessed he had no righteousness from anything he ever did.

The pharisee trusted in his good works to justify his claim to righteousness.

Jesus is saying we can do nothing good, let alone religiously good, to earn salvation. We must cast away everything we think justifies us before God as grounds to earn salvation and righteousness, and realize all we can do is see ourselves as useless sinners and ask for forgiveness. the only way to eternal life is to bring nothing as grounds that we earned it, and confess we're lost and need forgiveness. For we certainly are not going to earn our way in. Forgiveness means it is taken for granted that we have nothing to impress God by which he will usher us into heaven.

This is where the cross comes in. The cross affords that origin of forgiveness. If it was not for the cross, we could not be forgiven. We have no works to bring, but must point to the cross alone for our grounds. The cross is not our works we committed to earn anything. It is GOD'S WORK to be the means where by SINNERS who are GOOD FOR NOTHING can come to God and be forgiven.

I was good for nothing. I had NOTHING to earn heaven. I could point to NOTHING I ever did to convince God I should enter glory. I came as a good for nothing sinner, and asked forgiveness, which the pharisee never did, acknowledging God alone did the work to forgiven me through the cross.

No OTHER RELIGION works that way. They all point to their good deeds like the pharisee.

All Jesus said goes back to the cross and HOW USELESS we are without it. And if we ever start thinking we are superior to anyone, even after the cross, we lose it all! You ASSUME I think I'm superior to Muslims simply because I say I am saved and they're not. Wrong. I am indeed saved and they're not. But that does not make me superior to them. The words God gave to me in the bible are superior to the words they have in their Koran. The OBJECT of my faith for salvation is superior to their OBJECT of their faith for salvation. But NOTHING about ME is superior to them in any way, shape or form. Without JESUS I AM NOTHING!

Saying "they are all lost," is innocent and right when the point being made is that unless THEY cast away their good works they think will earn them righteousness, and realize THEY're sinners, like all of us were before we came to Christ, and accept the work of the cross as the means for God's forgiveness.

The ones saved by grace never point to themselves as superior in any way. Nothing about me before or after I was saved is better than anyone else. But the CROSS made the difference, and the CROSS is superior to THEIR object of faith.

When I compare others of other religions to me and say they're lost and I am saved, it has nothing to do with ME. ALL glory goes to God through His work with the cross. I did NOTHING to earn salvation and I have nothing to brag about. I can't look at any religious good deed I did, not even a confession or what you call lip service. I point to one thing and one thing only. THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS that stands for HIS DEATH. THAT is all I can point to, unlike religious adherents who point to heir good deeds. My good deeds must be maintained, but I do not point to hem for saving me.


If God asked me what I have to say I have a right for heaven, I would point to NOTHING IN ME nor anything I have done, but the CROSS.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not withhold love and forgiveness from muslims who reject the cross! If I do, then how?

well, consider that you have accepted a definition of "reject the cross" that was taught to you, and seemed right, but you really don't know. If "pick up your cross" is the opposite, and you can be observed to not be carrying a cross, and this is pointed out to you, it might be time to reflect upon the first definition.

Now if "accept the cross" = "put a cross around your neck, and wear it outside your shirt" then the opposite is not "pick up your cross," as we are all reasonably sure it is, so being as how we almost universally start in the former place, and few might be said to make it to the latter one, it only makes sense to be sensitive to actions which define these, and who is not aware of instances in which people underwent the OP works deemed necessary for salvation but then apparently withdrew for whatever reason.

(And of course the standard reply to these is some sorrow, and maybe some justification, to paper over the undercurrent of shame that we feel, and find no analogue for in the NT crowds who marveled daily at the miracles evidenced in conversions. And you can't really ask the new convert what is wrong, or you can, but you aren't going to really get much answer other than "it just wasn't working for me" or whatever; but the point is, this is your "horse," in the horse/cart scenario)

And you make good points @ the Pharisees prayer; so i would ask you why the Good Samaritan is saved, or, if you are skeptical of that (for valid reasons, you make a good point there, too; i'm convinced you are wrong, but still a good point), why are we told by Christ to "go and do likewise" @ the GS, but not @ the Pharisees prayer?

i see that you are not meaning to condemn, but to uphold and defend your idea of salvation; which is why i asked you how you define someone who is saved, as if i did not know; whether you prefer to admit it or not, we accept verbal declarations, and listen to others' "conversion" experiences, chiefly, and only demote that person to "lost" in our minds upon some further evidence.

And this suggests--practically demands--some change of behavior on our part; we treat those we deem "lost" differently than we do those we deem "saved," if for no other reason than that we have made this judgement; and it is not for the better. You might argue this, which is why i suggest to you that you are lost, too, and i can Show You The Way, and if you love Jesus you must certainly want to know a better way, so since you have not accepted my invitation you must hate Jesus.

Now, how does this make you feel? Likely it evokes no feeling in you at all because you rejected it immediately. Why do you suppose the Catholic might feel any different?

So, sorry for the book, but if you just answer these two questions,

why are we told by Christ to "go and do likewise" @ the GS, but not @ the Pharisees prayer?

and

Why do you suppose the Catholic might feel any different?

i will answer your question without a question.

[shazeep]

Saying "they are all lost," is innocent and right when the point being made is that unless THEY cast away their good works they think will earn them righteousness, and realize THEY're sinners, like all of us were before we came to Christ, and accept the work of the cross as the means for God's forgiveness.

then you are lost, and i urge you to see those altar works for what they were, which is supposedly a public declaration of your intent to follow Christ whole-heartedly, but might just as easily be a reaction to peer pressure or a fear of hell, or even a desire to be seen as a Shepherd, the Head, the one being looked up to.

And since I'm sure you appreciate this, you're welcome.

[shazeep]

If God asked me what I have to say I have a right for heaven, I would point to NOTHING IN ME nor anything I have done, but the CROSS.

yet we read "Forgive, and you will be forgiven," which suggests "don't forgive, and you won't be forgiven," so you must reconcile these two, your understanding of "nothing i need to do" and "forgive."

yes, Mike, no works, nor good deeds that you might do can get you saved, i have never denied that.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, consider that you have accepted a definition of "reject the cross" that was taught to you, and seemed right, but you really don't know.

First of all it was taught to me from the bible. And it is indeed act of faith. there are aspects of everything about God that we cannot know for sure like I can know black is black and white is white since it stands in front of me, whereas God is unseen and I only have His word. But faith in His word is just that. Faith. Trust. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. I cannot see anything to prove what I am told is true.

But the bible made statements that cannot be misunderstood. Jesus died on the cross. That is fact. The Koran teaches HE DID NOT die on the cross.

The bible speaks of the cross in no uncertain misconstrueable terms. He died for our salvation.

But whatever the case, whether I am wrong or not, that means nothing about my lack of love for muslims or anyone else. Simply because I believe they're lost according to how I understand being lost and being saved is concerned, that is no grounds for saying I do not love them.

If "pick up your cross" is the opposite, and you can be observed to not be carrying a cross, and this is pointed out to you, it might be time to reflect upon the first definition.

That still says nothing about whether or not I love muslims.

But your reasoning is always this vague "cannot be known" reasoning. In your view, like votivesoul said, there's nothing substantial. You make these claims, and make them harsh and strong and loud enough that it seems you are convinced beyond doubt that YOUR interpretation of scripture is correct. But when it comes to actually taking the scripture you use, like taking up our crosses, and talking context, you run. Then you say you might be wrong. Then you say we might all be wrong. But you do not act like you'[re wrong due to the harshness with which you criticize my person, when I do not deal with your person except in a general way.

You have an understanding of picking up your cross that I never heard about, unique to you, let alone disagreeing with mine. But when I proceed to talk about it, you refuse.

Picking up the cross is denying oneself. It has nothing to do with saying someone is lost or not. It has everything to do with crucifying the things in our lives that hinder God from working. Foremost sin is crucified. Self promotion. I already laid out that there is nothing I see in me that makes me better than a muslim. I cannot attribute anything in me in contrast to a muslim that personally makes me better. Taking the cross deals with SELF. And as far as SELF is concerned, I have nothing to point to that makes me feel better than a muslim, in fact thinking I am better than a muslim does not even enter my mind! I believe and know the bible THAT MUCH that it's not a matter of what qualities muslims or myself have, but rather what the object of our faith is. And the cross of Jesus makes the difference. You speak more of OUR crosses by FAR than the cross of Jesus. In fact, I cannot recall ANYTHING you ever said that focuses on the cross of Jesus. As I see it, your religion is a cross carrying religion that involves nothing to do with Jesus Christ's cross. And THAT makes you think carrying the cross can be done by muslims because you think they can deny themselves in some areas, and not even believe Jesus died.

In reality, the biggest part of carrying the cross is ignored by them. And that is denying themselves of the belief that they can be good enough to go to heaven.

Now if "accept the cross" = "put a cross around your neck, and wear it outside your shirt" then the opposite is not "pick up your cross," as we are all reasonably sure it is, so being as how we almost universally start in the former place, and few might be said to make it to the latter one, it only makes sense to be sensitive to actions which define these, and who is not aware of instances in which people underwent the OP works deemed necessary for salvation but then apparently withdrew for whatever reason.

I never know if you mean ORIGINAL POST or ONENESS PENTECOSTAL when you use OP.

Forget standards and forget ANYTHING else except what the bible says. You stray into these other things, when the issue on the table is the cross of Jesus and our crosses.

(And of course the standard reply to these is some sorrow, and maybe some justification, to paper over the undercurrent of shame that we feel, and find no analogue for in the NT crowds who marveled daily at the miracles evidenced in conversions. And you can't really ask the new convert what is wrong, or you can, but you aren't going to really get much answer other than "it just wasn't working for me" or whatever; but the point is, this is your "horse," in the horse/cart scenario)

And you make good points @ the Pharisees prayer; so i would ask you why the Good Samaritan is saved, or, if you are skeptical of that (for valid reasons, you make a good point there, too; i'm convinced you are wrong, but still a good point),

I never said he was saved or not saved. Your writing is not clear to read. I told you this before. It;s like you have a whole lot of unwritten points you're making that don't get on the screen for us to read. So what you do write is unclear.

The good samaritan is saved not because of his good deed to the victim on the road. It is because he trusted in the work of the cross for his salvation and nothing he could or could not do in himself.

why are we told by Christ to "go and do likewise" @ the GS, but not @ the Pharisees prayer?

We are told to do likewise because Christians need to do good works.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

But doing good works cannot save. That is why Jesus said to do likewise. I said this so many times now, I cannot understand why you keep asking me for the answer. How many times must I say we must do good things as christians, but not to save us?

continued..

[mfblume]

i see that you are not meaning to condemn, but to uphold and defend your idea of salvation; which is why i asked you how you define someone who is saved, as if i did not know; whether you prefer to admit it or not, we accept verbal declarations, and listen to others' "conversion" experiences, chiefly, and only demote that person to "lost" in our minds upon some further evidence.

No no no no.

I really mean it when I say people can make all the claims they want, but it is ONLY what GOD sees in their hearts that determines if they are really saved. See, here is what you miss. And I said this before as well. We can ONLY go by what people say.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Even Jesus said words are akin to fruit in the sense that we can tell a person's heart by their words. Though a person may SAY a good thing they rehearsed since they know people want to hear that good thing, but it's not really in their hearts, eventually the REAL words form the heart come out over time.

Anyway, only God truly knows what's in the heart, though. And whether I think a person is justified with God by us noticing their confession, it really does not matter. In the end God judges them, Not me. That's his business. Not mine.

It's not up to me to know if someone is genuinely converted. All that my job is is to tell folks what the bile says God requires for salvation. And no matter how much you water it down, it cannot be avoided that the bible demands faith in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, which muslims patently deny even occurred. Seriously, what other religious book that an entire religious movement depends upon actually states in black and white that Jesus WAS NOT CRUCIFIED? I put muslims in the same category as hindus and buddhists. YOU are the one who made MUSLIMS a big issue, not me. If I was talking to a hindu I would be focusing on hinduism as much as I focus on muslims with you. But it is interesting that the koram deals with the thought Christ DID NOT get crucified, while I highly doubt the main core hindu writing or the buddhist writing makes that claim, let alone MENTIONS Jesus. Hmmm...

Anyway, I do not HAVE TO KNOW if a person is right with God after they confess any faith in front of me or to anyone else. That's not my job. That's God. I throw the seed, and if it takes root and grows that's God's part, not mine.

And this suggests--practically demands--some change of behavior on our part; we treat those we deem "lost" differently than we do those we deem "saved," if for no other reason than that we have made this judgement; and it is not for the better.

Wrong.

All I have said is they're lost and we're saved. THAT HAS NOTHING to do with the way we treat anyone. I showed you a dialogue I had with a muslim on ASK A MUSLIM website. And I said NOTHING out of the way and commended him for sincerity and desire for truth. And he did the very thing you lamb basted me for, when he said I was lost because I believe Jesus is the Son of God. So, I cannot trust anything you say about bias, to begin with, after that fiasco of yours.

ANYWAY, nothing would hold me back from treating a fallen muslim on the road compared to a fallen christian on the road when both were in the state of having been wounded like the man on the Jericho road. And you just have it in your craw for some reason that that is not the case.

You might argue this, which is why i suggest to you that you are lost, too, and i can Show You The Way, and if you love Jesus you must certainly want to know a better way, so since you have not accepted my invitation you must hate Jesus.

You think I believe muslims hate Jesus? LOL I do not think they hate Jesus at all! they beleive a LIE about Jesus not even being crucified, and therefore are lost because the very core element of what it takes to be saved -- faith in His death cor us on the cross -- is simply not going to happen so long as they believe that damnable lie. But I would treat them as good as anyone else if you put me in a room with a christian and a muslim. NEITHER would get better treatment from me.

Now, how does this make you feel? Likely it evokes no feeling in you at all because you rejected it immediately. Why do you suppose the Catholic might feel any different?

The point is, Zeep, ,it does not matter. It matters what God knows about a heart. I never felt anyone you put in these hypotheticals hates Jesus. You imagined that one up.

So, sorry for the book, but if you just answer these two questions,

why are we told by Christ to "go and do likewise" @ the GS, but not @ the Pharisees prayer?

and

Why do you suppose the Catholic might feel any different?

i will answer your question without a question.

I already said why Jesus told us to do good like the GS did. And the reason Jesus did not tell us to do what the pharisee did is because the pharisee justified himself with religious deeds to be saved that will never justify us. Jesus wants us to look to nothing in ourselves or what we have done when we come before God. That's what IN THE NAME OF JESUS is supposed to convey, although many do not know that and therefore do not mean it. But because Jesus does not want us thinking we can be saved aside from the work of the cross as our ONLY MEANS for justification, He does not want us to think ONE TITTLE OR JOT of our goodness and good deeds is going to impress God enough to save us. He wants us to [pray like the publican WHO KNOWS there's nothing in him nor in his actions that are worthy of salvation! ONLY THE CROSS' work saves. Not ours. THAT IS WHY.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Saying "they are all lost," is innocent and right when the point being made is that unless THEY cast away their good works they think will earn them righteousness, and realize THEY're sinners, like all of us were before we came to Christ, and accept the work of the cross as the means for God's forgiveness.

then you are lost,

Howso? I cast away all thining that my good works can save me. I looked ONLY to the cross for salvation! I cast away all inklings that my good works earn me salvation for heaven. So how do i not cast away all thoughts that my good works can earn salvation if i cast away all thoughts that my good works can earn salvation?

and i urge you to see those altar works for what they were, which is supposedly a public declaration of your intent to follow Christ whole-heartedly, but might just as easily be a reaction to peer pressure or a fear of hell, or even a desire to be seen as a Shepherd, the Head, the one being looked up to.

Altar works? Who said anything about altar works? I simply said a true genuine faith in the work of the cross that saves us, with the clear and conscious acknowledgement that ONLY THE WORK OF THE CROSS is the grounds to save us must be seen by God in the heart. You keep bringing up some confession deal, and I never said a note about that. I simply said the faith in the work of the cross ALONE that God sees in our hearts is what He uses to save us. Where you come from with altar work is beyond me.

And since I'm sure you appreciate this, you're welcome.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

If God asked me what I have to say I have a right for heaven, I would point to NOTHING IN ME nor anything I have done, but the CROSS.

yet we read "Forgive, and you will be forgiven," which suggests "don't forgive, and you won't be forgiven," so you must reconcile these two, your understanding of "nothing i need to do" and "forgive."

yes, Mike, no works, nor good deeds that you might do can get you saved, i have never denied that.

What have you stated here that I have not agreed with?

I forgive everyone for anything they've done to me. I forgive you for slamming me to muck and mud and tar and feathers. I forgive WII for being a muslim. Where have I indicated I have not forgiven anyone? Please elaborate.

You keep saying we can be forgiven only if we forgive. Why do you say this? What indication do you have that I have not forgiven anyone?

Do you think I am unforgiving if I say a person is lost if they do not believe Christ's death on the cross is absolutely essential for salvation? If so, that is not an issue of forgiving or not forgiving. lol. Apples and oranges.

Now, let me ask you a question.

Do you feel anyone who sincerely believes the koran's statement that Jesus did not so much as get crucified is saved while holding onto the that belief?