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  #61  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:22 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
I think the current use of resources is starting to really cause me concern like it never did before. Is it morally right that over 80% of our resources go to support buildings, salaries, etc...when there is glaring need all around us? Recently I watched a speech offered by a minister who was arguing that taxation was the reason most Christians can't afford to be more charitable with their resources....could it be closer to the truth that this minister's multi-million dollar facility and programs are a glaring example as to why more Christians cannot afford to be more charitable? I don't know...just random thoughts here.
I appreciate the thoughts you have presented. I agree with some. I disagree with others. But... that is what fellowship is about. We do not have to agree to be brethren. God equips each of us for different visions and our concepts shape which vision we seek to be a part of.

Concerning your closing comments...

Indeed...

Imagine what level of ministry could be accomplished in the lives of those who live near us if we did not have the billions (maybe trillions?) of dollars of debt, buildings, staff etc to meet that siphon so much of the resources of the church from us before we can even begin thinking about ministering to people.

Edit: Oops... I'm not sure what happened to my comments on your thoughts about licensing. I will have to repost those thoughts.
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  #62  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
This leads my train of thought to the subject of licensing. Licensing of ministers in house churches certainly isn’t an absolute necessity, but I feel it may provide some benefits. For example to maintain a license one generally has to have at least some experience, study, education, or knowledge of doctrine. There is the risk of Bro. Joe starting a house church and not knowing the foundational teachings of justification and sanctification, oneness, eschatology, etc. One could essentially drift into a doctrinal wasteland where truth is completely subjective to the teacher’s take on things. At least a licensed minister would have the basic doctrinal knowledge needed to keep himself/herself and others on a biblical path in their discovery of truth and Christian living.
Please do keep in mind that the majority of licensed preachers preach some sort of error. Licensing is a broad statement as there are many, many denominations out there.

The concept that licensing will prevent erroneous teaching is a failed on in my opinion.

As a matter of fact. I wonder how many people out there would more readily hear further truth if the fact that they have a license in their back pocket caused them to hold so true to one specific dogma. A license is, for all intents and purposes, an agreement to defend a particular dogma.

This statement reminds me of GW Bush's statement.

"This would be a whole lot easier if it were a dictatorship... as long as I'm the dictator."

This is to say... "Licensing would be a good idea... as long as everyone is licensed by us"

I think the openness that comes with open study without having signed a contract of allegiance to a particular doctrinal stance could, in the grand scale, lead to more people being more open to more truth.

Of course... then we would have to leave the leadership to God. (YIKES!)

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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
Licensing would also provide accountability. There are strange doctrines that arise even among those who are educated in doctrine. If an unlicensed minister launched a house church he/she could essentially teach anything. They could teach adoptionism, covenantal polygamy, or even alternative lifestyle theology. But if they are licensed they are accountable to the licensing body for their teaching. If they teach something inappropriate actions can be taken to correct the mistaken minister or to officially remove him/her from fellowship for others to see. It would also assist the outsider’s perception of legitimacy. The house church pastor, elder, facilitator would be a recognized “licensed minister” though his official function and capacity may not be much different than anyone else’s in the fellowship. He could also file with state authorities to perform weddings etc. It could prevent the notion that such pastors are just “loose cannons”.
The house church model has it's own set of built in accountabilities. Local accountabilities by people you know and who know you.

The Bible gives an excellent set of guidelines to follow which produce accountability as well as provide instruction on how to deal with situations as they arise.

It's like the Constitution. We have it. It has some GREAT ideas. We should use them.

Again... on the loose cannons issue... licensing causes people to hold to a particular dogma. That is great if you are the one fortunate organization that stumbled upon truth. But licensing causes any who are in error to stick to their dogma's just as tightly and quenches a spirit of open, honest, Bible study which could lead all to a greater sense of truth.

In the end, licensing creates an us vs them mentality and shuts off the free flow of ideas that is necessary for the perfection of the saints.

Of course my thoughts come from the mindset of house church and how it fulfills its goal to save the world. If one were to look at the issue from the standpoint of house churches and the need to keep them saved (or at least all on the same page) then that is another whole set of thoughts.

I think licensing of house churches viewed from a forward perspective can only limit this powerful model that served so well to turn the world upside down.

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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
Also licensing would provide wider base of fellowship. A licensed house church ministry would keep the smaller body in fellowship with the larger body of like Christian faith. For example if a house church pastor was a licensed UPCI minister he could freely participate and fellowship with other UPCI churches in a given district. Marriage retreats, seminars, leadership meetings, conferences, etc would be excellent places to keep the smaller body in fellowship with other churches both traditional and house church. Could you imagine a house church pastor who had launched a house church movement producing multiple house churches in a major US city speaking at a district or general conference on evangelism, body ministry, and/or church growth? I can see the title of his message now, “Shrinking to Grow: Little is much when God is in it”. (Actually… I’ve preached that sermon in my head maybe twenty times already. LOL)

IMO licensing only narrows the base of fellowship. When your base of fellowship is a free flow of fellowship with the many ministries in the area then licensing can only serve to narrow that field. Licensing creates an allegiance to one group which, often, creates a desire to make ones fellowship increasingly singular to those in that group.

On a local level (which is where the house church operates for the most part) licensing would not seem, to me, to have any ability to increase the base of fellowship.
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  #63  
Old 11-07-2007, 11:04 AM
SisBeezer
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had a question here. did the apostles have to be licensed? is there scripture that requires ministers to be licensed? just wondering.
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  #64  
Old 11-07-2007, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SisBeezer View Post
had a question here. did the apostles have to be licensed? is there scripture that requires ministers to be licensed? just wondering.
No ma'am... on both questions.

But, hoping no offense to Beez or CH and recognizing that Beez's question was not directed at CH either......

I will be sure and mention on CH's behalf so he will know that we recognize his statement... he did say that he doesn't see licensing as a necessity... just something some might benefit from.

I tend to disagree that there is any major benefit (especially one equaling the potential pitfalls) but, so that no offense would be taken etc... I wanted to make note of his disclaimer.
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  #65  
Old 11-07-2007, 11:10 AM
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nah it wasnt directed at anyone. just the thread reminded me of that question i always had but never asked lol

thanks.
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  #66  
Old 11-07-2007, 12:36 PM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Very interesting points on all sides. Also, thanks for pointing out that I don’t see licensing as a necessity.

The Apostles were not licensed, so such should never be a necessity…accept if legality would apply. For example, in the state of Ohio a minister cannot perform recognized marriages if he isn’t licensed with the state to do so. The State of Ohio requires that all ministers applying for state license to marry be licensed with their particular denomination, organization, or church body. A copy of this license must be submitted to the state. So, if a minister doesn’t desire to marry believers in Ohio it certainly wouldn’t be an issue. But I’ve read somewhere that some house churches just independently license their own pastor or elders for legalities like this.

Here’s a good question:

What do you guys think about a, “statement of faith”? Should a house church have a “statement of faith” that keeps the fundamentals of their faith generally stated? Such a statement could be as in-depth as the UPCIs “Articles of Faith” or as simple as the following five statements:

1.) We believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.
2.) We believe in the Oneness of God in Christ Jesus.
3.) We believe in full Apostolic salvation as taught by Peter in Acts 2:38.
4.) We believe in biblical Christian living.
5.) We believe in the soon return of Jesus Christ.

…or it could be just one statement:

1.) We believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.

So would there be any value to, “statement(s) of faith”?
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  #67  
Old 11-07-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
Here’s a good question:

What do you guys think about a, “statement of faith”? Should a house church have a “statement of faith” that keeps the fundamentals of their faith generally stated? Such a statement could be as in-depth as the UPCIs “Articles of Faith” or as simple as the following five statements:

1.) We believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.
2.) We believe in the Oneness of God in Christ Jesus.
3.) We believe in full Apostolic salvation as taught by Peter in Acts 2:38.
4.) We believe in biblical Christian living.
5.) We believe in the soon return of Jesus Christ.

…or it could be just one statement:

1.) We believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.

So would there be any value to, “statement(s) of faith”?
Let me ask you this.

Please don't take this as anything other than, what I feel, is a legitimate question at this point in the discussion.

Why?

I once was at my Sunday School teachers house and we were reloading shells. I saw a small jar of mercury on the shelf. I picked it up and it was amazing how it was liquid and yet did not make the glass wet. It didn't even seem to be touching the glass in some ways.

My friend asked to see it. I handed it to him. But I kept my hands under the glass jar the entire time. Why? Because, in my mind, I could hold it with no problem.... but he, apparently, needed my help. I didn't possess the trust for him that I possessed for myself.

God made us a promise. He will lead us and guide us into all truth. We must simply follow him.

There seems to be a continuing theme here that some level of comfort will be attained if just the smallest amount of control (or may authority or ability to reprimand would be better than control) can be had.

I am trying to word this in the the most respectful terms possible. (My apologies in advance if I am failing miserably to ask these questions with a good level of respect for your thoughts)

Before I comment further... do you understand what I am seeing? Can you help me understand the need for this ability or maybe even understand why I am missing something?

Thanks
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  #68  
Old 11-07-2007, 01:04 PM
SisBeezer
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technically i dont see anything wrong with a basic statement of faith, i think it is good to have something to show newcommers and visitors, so they know what it is they are getting into. i think alot of hurt and heartache can be avoided if we knew ahead of time what kind of church we were getting into.

saying that, i also think it becomes a problem when we start requiring folks to preach it just exactly like us, or else we dont consider them a part of "the church"

most importantly, THE CHURCH, is the body of believers, not a building, not an org.

God created people totally different. and we are different for reasons. no matter what church we are in, no matter what faith we claim, you will not find one other person that you agree with 100%. so if we are to require that someone teaches only what you/we believe, then we are saying we are the only ones on earth that can be right about everything.

i hope this makes sense lol
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  #69  
Old 11-07-2007, 01:12 PM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SisBeezer View Post
technically i dont see anything wrong with a basic statement of faith, i think it is good to have something to show newcommers and visitors, so they know what it is they are getting into. i think alot of hurt and heartache can be avoided if we knew ahead of time what kind of church we were getting into.

saying that, i also think it becomes a problem when we start requiring folks to preach it just exactly like us, or else we dont consider them a part of "the church"

most importantly, THE CHURCH, is the body of believers, not a building, not an org.

God created people totally different. and we are different for reasons. no matter what church we are in, no matter what faith we claim, you will not find one other person that you agree with 100%. so if we are to require that someone teaches only what you/we believe, then we are saying we are the only ones on earth that can be right about everything.

i hope this makes sense lol
Yes ma'am.

It seems to me that if someone wanted a statement of my faith then all they would need to do is ask me to state my beliefs. Or... ask me a few questions.

No problem with a basic statement of beliefs at all.

The issue I have is that the house church model is so universal and it seems that we are already moving the direction of denominational/organizational paths of the past.

These things have good intentions. They seek unity of doctrine etc. A lofty and biblical goal for sure.

It seems to me that the current immovable stance of all the major denominations (and little corner cults alike) is the result of everybody drawing their corners and defending them with all their might.

Rather than the high and honorable goal of unity these things can have a way of bringing us right back to the us versus them mentality that current makes lifelong baptists, methodists, catholics etc out of everyone.

I am not doing a good job of expressing my thoughts here. I may try again later on.

It is a great discussion though.

I am enjoying it.
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  #70  
Old 11-07-2007, 01:14 PM
SisBeezer
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agreed.
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