You Be The Judge: Anderson Vs Burk

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I'm distorting?? I've given you dozens of scriptures that explain my position. You've answered none of those. Please, show where I am distorting any of those passages with your own scriptural evidence.

I do believe that our Brother is passionate and is responding to us with his passion and not with Bible.

Hesetmefree238, can you please show us where Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has a gap of thousands of years in them? Can you show us where those gaps are? Can you explain how Christians in the future will be dragged into synagogues and brought before the Sanhedrin?

I appreciate your passion in this discussion, just apply it to strengthen your arguments (not with philosophical banter) but with chapter and verse refutations.



In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I'm distorting?? I've given you dozens of scriptures that explain my position. You've answered none of those. Please, show where I am distorting any of those passages with your own scriptural evidence.

You are distorting the foundational teaching of the 2nd coming and the literal
resurrection of the dead. The idea that Christ has already returned and that
the dead in Christ have already been resurrected is dangerous at best,
and devilish at the worst, and it's a distortion of the truth of God's Word
that I would be afraid to make.

II Thessalonians 1:7-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Has the Lord Jesus returned from heaven with his mighty angels?
Did he come in flaming fire taking vengenace on them that know not God?
If he did, how did he do it without the population living on the earth at
that time (AD 70 as you claim) knowing it?
When he came was he glorified and admired by his saints living on the earth
who were awaiting his return? If this happened why is there no written
record of such a great event, why is the gospel still being preached,
why are people still receiving the Holy Ghost, and why are we still here?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

You are distorting the foundational teaching of the 2nd coming and the literal
resurrection of the dead. The idea that Christ has already returned and that
the dead in Christ have already been resurrected is dangerous at best,
and devilish at the worst, and it's a distortion of the truth of God's Word
that I would be afraid to make.

II Thessalonians 1:7-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Has the Lord Jesus returned from heaven with his mighty angels?
Did he come in flaming fire taking vengenace on them that know not God?
If he did, how did he do it without the population living on the earth at
that time (AD 70 as you claim) knowing it?
When he came was he glorified and admired by his saints living on the earth
who were awaiting his return? If this happened why is there no written
record of such a great event, why is the gospel still being preached,
why are people still receiving the Holy Ghost, and why are we still here?

Brother let's take this in steps. Since you are coming at this issue with more questions than one post could handle. Would you please do me a favor and answer the following for me?

Hesetmefree238, can you please show us where Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has a gap of thousands of years in them? Can you show us where those gaps are? Can you explain how Christians in the future will be dragged into synagogues and brought before the Sanhedrin?

Lord bless you greatly

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother the Lord love your zeal, but watch who you call a heretic and say they're not APOSTOLIC PENTECOSTAL.

Keep the emotions down to a low roar, and please present your arguments for what you believe with chapter and verse.

may you and your ministry be blessed.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I have nothing personal against anyone writing on this forum. I have always
believed that we need to leave room for different opinions in the body of
Christ in regards to prophecy teaching and the return of the Lord.
Whether a person is partial preterist, pre trib, mid trib, or post trib does
not matter to me. However, I have a major problem with the full preterist
viewpoint, because it espouses something that is completely false and
dangerous. This viewpoint as you know, since you espouse it and believe it,
teaches the following:
1) The 2nd coming of Christ has already happened, therefore there is no
pending return of the Lord or future rapture of the church.
2) There is no future, literal resurrection of the dead.
These are completely false doctrines. You are tearing down the 2nd coming
of Christ, the rapture of the church, and the resurrection of the dead. In
my opinion this is very dangerous. We're not talking about disagreements
on standard issues, ie.. hair, makeup, jewelry, we are talking about the
very foundations on which we are built.

Hebrews 6:1-2
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

You are distorting the foundational teaching of the 2nd coming and the literal resurrection of the dead. The idea that Christ has already returned and that the dead in Christ have already been resurrected is dangerous at best, and devilish at the worst, and it's a distortion of the truth of God's Word that I would be afraid to make.

II Thessalonians 1:7-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Has the Lord Jesus returned from heaven with his mighty angels? Did he come in flaming fire taking vengenace on them that know not God? If he did, how did he do it without the population living on the earth at that time (AD 70 as you claim) knowing it? When he came was he glorified and admired by his saints living on the earth who were awaiting his return? If this happened why is there no written record of such a great event, why is the gospel still being preached, why are people still receiving the Holy Ghost, and why are we still here?

The above is easily answered, and has been done before.

However, since you’ve already decided AFP is erroneous, continuing to ask us what we believe is senseless. For that reason, you should teach what you believe to be biblical Truth. That way you could better point out what you see as errors, and also teach us what you believe is the Truth.

You are the teacher…I am your willing student…so please teach....

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

I have nothing personal against anyone writing on this forum. I have always
believed that we need to leave room for different opinions in the body of
Christ in regards to prophecy teaching and the return of the Lord.
Whether a person is partial preterist, pre trib, mid trib, or post trib does
not matter to me. However, I have a major problem with the full preterist
viewpoint, because it espouses something that is completely false and
dangerous. This viewpoint as you know, since you espouse it and believe it,
teaches the following:
1) The 2nd coming of Christ has already happened, therefore there is no
pending return of the Lord or future rapture of the church.
2) There is no future, literal resurrection of the dead.
These are completely false doctrines. You are tearing down the 2nd coming
of Christ, the rapture of the church, and the resurrection of the dead. In
my opinion this is very dangerous. We're not talking about disagreements
on standard issues, ie.. hair, makeup, jewelry, we are talking about the
very foundations on which we are built.

Hebrews 6:1-2
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Sounds wonderful maybe you would like to answer my questions

Brother, can you please show us where Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has a gap of thousands of years in them? Can you show us where those gaps are? Can you explain how Christians in the future will be dragged into synagogues and brought before the Sanhedrin?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

The above is easily answered, and has been done before.

However, since you’ve already decided AFP is erroneous, continuing to ask us what we believe is senseless. For that reason, you should teach what you believe to be biblical Truth. That way you could better point out what you see as errors, and also teach us what you believe is the Truth.

You are the teacher…I am your willing student…so please teach....

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sounds wonderful maybe you would like to answer my questions

Brother, can you please show us where Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has a gap of thousands of years in them? Can you show us where those gaps are? Can you explain how Christians in the future will be dragged into synagogues and brought before the Sanhedrin?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I think you are out of luck on this one. I already asked him the following:

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Since you could not say the above unless you know what you believe and why, would you please give the verse(s) in Matthew 24 that you believe places a gap between the prophecies for the First Century from those that are to occur in the future. I have asked for this for many years and have never received it yet.

This is how HSMF answered that simple request...

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

I don't know that I can give you a scripture that says certain parts of Matthew 24 are for the 1st century and that certain parts are for the end time. What I can tell you is that there are more scriptures that talk about the 2nd coming of Christ and the literal resurrection of the dead than there are scriptures that tell us that baptism should be performed in Jesus's name (which I certainly believe in). As I said, the 2nd coming and resurrection of the dead are as foundational as the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Hebrews 6:1-2
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The above is coming from a guy who knows so much that he can say for certain another view is wrong, even though he cannot even prove that his view is biblically correct.....

Very, very sad....

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I think you are out of luck on this one. I already asked him the following:



This is how HSMF answered that simple request...




The above is coming from a guy who knows so much that he can say for certain another view is wrong, even though he cannot even prove that his view is biblically correct.....

Very, very sad....

How embarrassing.

Yet, I still want the Brother to at least try to answer my questions.

Brother Hesetmefree238, can you please show us where Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has a gap of thousands of years in them? Can you show us where those gaps are? Can you explain how Christians in the future will be dragged into synagogues and brought before the Sanhedrin?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Jason, still when all is said and done what a person believes about Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 dictates what they believe on a future coming of the Lord. That is why the UPCI manual states that all forms of Preterism are to be rejected. It states on page 152 of the 2006 manual, "We reject preterist notions that the prophecies of Revelation 4-19 were fulfilled prior to A.D. 70, that Satan is bound, and that we are now living during the thousand years described in Revelation 20." The reason why the manual is commenting on a Partial Preterist interpretation is because they understood early on that Partial Preterism leads to a fulfilled conclusion. A little like, "kill it before it grows", so to speak.

All three of your points hinge on how Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are interpreted.

I understand that you are still looking into those chapters and hope you consider the importance of the time langauge and how if those three chapters are not fulfilled in our immediate future we cannot have a future ccoming of Chirst.

Again please consider the problem of Gog and Magog.

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 all speak of a tribulation.

Mat 24:21

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE."

Mar 13:19

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, NEITHER SHALL BE."

Luk 21:22

"For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED."


Rev 20:8-9

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

If we are told by Jesus Christ that there would be a great tribulation in Matthew 24, and Mark 13, and that in Luke 21 it would be a day of vengeance that all (100%) of things that have been written (every jot and tittle) would be fulfilled. Now, if the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled after chapter 19, we then run into another battle which is the battle of Gog and Magog. How if the tribulation spoken of Jesus Christ in Matthew, and Mark are such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor EVER SHALL BE! How do we end up with another battle that Jesus never warned us about. Partial Preterist have no answer for that question. There is no such thing as partial futurism. The Bible doesn't bare it out.


Brother Jason, it's either all or nothing. Partial Preterism, is a learning curve that sooner or later leads to a total fulfillment. Those who penned the words in the United Pentecostal Church International Manual understood that.
Partial Preterism if one follows it to it ultimate conclusion will finally come to fulfilled eschatology, and Dispensational teachings of Pre-Tribulation rapture makes no sense and creates more questions then it attempts to answer.

This is why Brother Burk and myself are so persistent with those three chapters. In all of my discussions with different individuals I always ask them to explain what they believe concerning End Time teachings, they usually can't answer a great majority of the questions. They usually say that they need to ask one of their minister friends who know more than they, or need to go over their notes or flip charts. People in Pentecost have been getting turned off for years with mind bending ultra confusion of the End Time issue.
When I have sat down with people (no matter what eschatology they believe) and have them explain to me their view, they really can't. When I show them Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are fulfilled the light bulb goes on. The rest is a just a matter of time and study.

I appreciate you and hope all is well between us.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Borther, all is well with us, I suppose you have grown on me little. I personally like a guy who can both give and take a jab. However, I don't quite see how Gog and Magog is a problem for my viewpoint, perhaps you can explain more. I believe it is the same as Armageddon, and happens at the end of this age, and that the rapture and second coming happen all at this time (post-trib). Again, I don't see how it is a problem for me. FMI (for MY information) what is the full pret view of God and Magog?