Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by BroGary

...
Again, no hard feelings, we simply agree to disagree on this particular point :-)

We Christians will never see eye to eye on everything. Each of us looks at the Word and prays for understanding but we some times come to different conclusions.

I agree with your post, Bro. Gary. We should agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Sam

We Christians will never see eye to eye on everything. Each of us looks at the Word and prays for understanding but we some times come to different conclusions.

I agree with your post, Bro. Gary. We should agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

Well, on that we can agree - to be able to disagree in a civilized and polite way :-)

[Hoovie]

Understood. I have long ago determined if these things can't be discussed with mutual respect they can't possibly be beneficial.

The reason I even responded with "about face", "desire", "hunger" and "completely willing" was because you gave these as qualifiers to receive the Holy Spirit...

Blessings

Steve

Originally Posted by BroGary

No offense taken bro, we will have to politely agree to disagree with no hard feelings.

Having said that, there are likely some out there who didn't do an about face who did not speak in genuine tongues (either taught, or imitated what they thought they was supposed to say) or some who may had temporairly done an about face, got the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of tongues, then went back to their old ways, "backslidden on the pews")

Those who seemed to do an about face and have a changed life does not mean they received the Holy Ghost, there are people who become devout muslims, mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, ect. and have a changed life, giving up alcohol, ect. so that alone is not enough evidence.

Anyhow, what others and myself have said in defense of tongues being the initial evidence I am not going to rehash here in this post, but because of all that and probally some stuff I can't think of right now I am convinced tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

Again, no hard feelings, we simply agree to disagree on this particular point :-)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Gary, the issue does seem to become muddled when we know and see many non-tongue speakers who seem to have turned "about face" and are completely willing to live the Christian life.

Their desire and hunger for God is also apparent.

Do you not know such people? I know many - even pastors and workers in the Kingdom.

Also, there are those who do speak in tongues (and by no means most or all) who have not turned "about face" nor appear hungry for God...

It's because of what I indicated above that I tend to treat the tongues issue as a non sequitur...

I simply don't see the "evidence" for the case you are making.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Do I have to follow you? Not happenin'.

Not gonna follow DA2's example and search for truth? What will you follow then?

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Jesus Christ is also the only One who can save us (John 14:6). We can't "save ourselves" in the sense of eternal salvation (Titus 3:5-8).

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Not gonna follow DA2's example and search for truth? What will you follow then?

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Jesus Christ is also the only One who can save us (John 14:6). We can't "save ourselves" in the sense of eternal salvation (Titus 3:5-8).

Acts 2:40 "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

His Spirit draws and we decide - save yourself. It not easy believism. We have a part in salvation, accepting what He has to offer us.

Barnes: Save yourselves - This expression here denotes, preserve yourselves from the influence, opinions, and fate of this generation. It implies that they were to use diligence and effort to deliver themselves. God deals with people as free agents. He calls upon them to put forth their own power and effort to be saved. Unless they put forth their own strength, they will never be saved. When they are saved, they will ascribe to God the praise for having inclined them to seek him, and for the grace whereby they are saved.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Sam

There are about 20 records of people being converted in the Book of Acts. In some cases it is recorded that these conversions were accompanied with or followed by water baptism and/or Spirit Baptism. In the cases where it is recorded that people received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (or the Spirit came upon them, or the Spirit fell upon them, or they "received" (made room for) the Holy Spirit, or they were filled with the Spirit) it mentions or infers that speaking with tongues accompanied or followed that experience. Based on these examples we have come up with the "initial physical evidence" doctrine. The "initial physical evidence" doctrine states that speaking with tongues is "the initial physical evidence" of receiving the Holy Ghost Baptism. Some Christians think that there is enough scriptural support for this doctrine and some do not. Most Apostolic/Charismatic/Pentecostal people believe in the "initial physical evidence" doctrine. Among those who believe in the "initial physical evidence" doctrine there is a small minority who believe that the Holy Ghost Baptism is the same as being born of the Spirit so these folks basically believe that unless a person has spoken with tongues, that person is not born of the Spirit or is not saved.

But of those 20 (barring the initial outpouring) only 2 mention that they spoke with tongues.

That seems like mighty flimsy evidence that this is an absolute initial evidence without which one has not received the Holy Ghost.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by BroGary

You brought out a very good point, many people don't have a true understanding of all what true repentence really infers.

Many think it is merely being sorry for past sins, but the word "repent" actually means to do an "about face" (I did enough of those during boot camp in the military :-)

We need to not only have a deep sorrow for past sins, but a complete willingness to change so we live a live pleasing to Him in obedience to His Word, and not think we can continue to do any of the things we used to that are contrary to His Word.

So, what then is conversion?

Peter said, Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out (Acts 3:19).

The Strong's Dictionary reads that repent means to be sorry, while converted means to turn around or reverse.

IMO, one can be genuinely contrite for a lot of reasons...

A song convicts them and they are moved to repentance. A message is so moving as to bring them to an altar.

They are sincerely sorry and regret the sin, thus they confess their sin to the Lord and repent.

But without a true conversion of the heart and mind...a total turn around and desire to never return to the place they were before, they will return to it.

[Falla39]

Many years ago, a young mother and friend came to church with me. She had two small children and was divorced. As she continued to come to church, she eventually went to the alter and later wanted to be baptized. My late father baptized her in Jesus Name. My mother and I went with her to the room where she was to prepare to be baptized. After being baptized, we returned to the room so she could change into dry clothing. Mom and I kept praying and she also. All of a sudden she got a good blessing and began to shout. She definitely was feeling good. She announced she received the Holy Ghost. Although she received a good blessing, there was no evidence that she had spoken in tongues. Mom and I both noted that!

This precious lady immediately started wearing dresses, no make-up, jewelry, etc. Sold her TV. No one told her to do these things. She did them on her own. She was not mature spiritually to understand why she was doing this. She was just doing/trying to pattern after others. Some people do things because others do them. Some people do things because they feel it is the right thing to do. Others do things because of who they are.

I took her and her children with me to campmeeting. Paid all her expenses. As we were nearing our city coming home, she cried and said, "I just wish I could stay there from now on. It's like another world at campmeeting." We can go somewhere for a great family, etc., gathering and be sad when we have to leave. But we still live in this world. WE'RE NOT HOME YET!

She continued to come to church with her children, then got a new job with the local police department. She started missing church and then quit alto gether. One day I saw her, in her uniform, heavy make-up, etc. I saw her later at the super-
market. She said she was happy. Eventually she went to work for the county sheriff's department and I seldom saw her. Then she moved to the county seat, continuing to work for the sheriff's department.

Her children grew up and the daughter married a catholic boy. Her son went to a Baptist Bible school. She asked the local Baptist minister to give a recommendation for the school. He did so. (she had been raised Baptist). Years later I ran into him at an outlet mall where he worked. He started telling me he was ordained as a Baptist minister. Started telling me about what was wrong with our faith.

Later I made contact with her, and two of our daughters and I met in her city for lunch. Her two children (grown now) were there too. The daughter with her husband and baby. The mother expressed to me that she was concerned that her grandbaby would be raised catholic. We had a pleasant time and took pictures, etc. We have prayed for her and her family all these years. Her son can be found in the gay parades. Very actively involved in the gay movement. My late father used to say, "There are alternatives to obeying TRUTH"!

I wonder how many, through the years, even in Pentecost, received a blessing at the entrance of the Kingdom, but did not press on into the kingdom. Perhaps similiar to a child being born. Some get to the entrance of the womb/tomb, and give up. I've seen people that appeared to be well on their way to receiving the Holy Ghost and suddenly give up. Quit and refuse to go any farther. I believe we cheat ourselves when we do not press on until we have the joy and the evidence that we have truly been born again, of water and of the Spirit.

Not long ago I once again connected with this lady AND her two children, via Facebook. I pray that one day she will realize that a onetime blessing is not sufficient for a lifetime! Eternity??

Could we compare the Holy Ghost as the down payment/earnest money,put in escrow, until the full purchace is completed at the appointed time of the closing. The evidence of things not seen yet, but by faith we wait for it. After the "CLOSING", we are given full possession.

Falla39

[faithit166]

amen falla