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  #81  
Old 10-16-2015, 09:31 PM
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
You are incorrect. You distance the word body in Paul's reference to absence from the context. Your inconsistency is the basis of your error. I will display an exegesis of the context to Show your error when I have more time later.

Looking forward to seeing it! Although I would note my conclusion is not based on an exegesis of the word "body", that is merely a side point. My conclusion is based on the context of the whole passage in question. But I do look forward to seeing your presentation.
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  #82  
Old 10-16-2015, 10:48 PM
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

Yeah, it should be quite a whopper!....LOL
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  #83  
Old 10-16-2015, 10:50 PM
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

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Originally Posted by Cracker Barrel View Post
First Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is my hope, biggy!
I have the same hope, the only difference is that I believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ already happened when he came back in judgment on the unbelieving Jews in 70ad. "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up, together, (in like manner) and so shall we ever be with the Lord. In like manner is simply when we die, we immediately go to be with the lord.
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  #84  
Old 10-16-2015, 10:52 PM
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

Boing!
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  #85  
Old 10-17-2015, 07:21 AM
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
No problem. It's just that very few futurists, even, believe we stay in our graves til the resurrection. Only the soul sleep people do and they're in the minority. Most believe we go immediately upon death in spirit and soul to the Lord in heaven, and await the bodily resurrection later to then once again be spirit, soul and body as God created man to be.
Funny the things you learn or hear or read on a forum. Because I have never heard what you are saying in any prophecy teaching in 50 years. So just what is our spirit and soul doing in heaven while we wait for the bodily resurrection?
So if I understand what you are saying, Adam and Eve had glorified Bodies before the fall?
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  #86  
Old 10-17-2015, 05:55 PM
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer View Post
Funny the things you learn or hear or read on a forum. Because I have never heard what you are saying in any prophecy teaching in 50 years. So just what is our spirit and soul doing in heaven while we wait for the bodily resurrection?
So if I understand what you are saying, Adam and Eve had glorified Bodies before the fall?
Yes, I always maintained they were immortal and lost that immortality when they sinned. they did not have to eat of any fruit to be immortal in body. Sin brought death, and I know it's physical death as well as spiritual because Paul spoke of the death in Romans 5, and the remedy was the physical death of Jesus as payment. He would not have stated Christ's physical death for us redeems us if physical death was not a penalty for sin. He paid the price of our crime by physically dying, implying physical death is the consequence of sin that is mentioned Ro 5:12
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  #87  
Old 10-17-2015, 05:55 PM
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Looking forward to seeing it! Although I would note my conclusion is not based on an exegesis of the word "body", that is merely a side point. My conclusion is based on the context of the whole passage in question. But I do look forward to seeing your presentation.
2 Corinthians 5:1-11 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Paul began by speaking of our bodies. He used the singular tense. The earthly house is the body made of the earth. And he called it a tabernacle since it is temporal, and not a HOUSE or TEMPLE that is more permanent, simply because our bodies are mortal. The house is made by God, the immortal body we shall gain in resurrection. This wording is similar to 1 Cor 15 where our resurrected bodies will be immortal and like the body of the Lord’s upon His resurrection that was spiritual.

I always remind folks spiritual things are not always non-physical as most assume. Spiritual is contrasted from nature, not from physical. Many supernatural things were very physical. 1 Cor 10 referred to very physical spiritual food and drink the Israelites enjoyed in the wilderness.

Anyway, the reason it’s called a tabernacle or house is because THE SOUL AND SPIRIT inhabit it. Souls are not meant to remain in earthly tents like our natural bodies.

Dissolved implies the earthly body shall decay in the grave, contrary to the spiritual body that is immortal and not subject to decay.

Jesus was foretold to not have his body suffer corruption. So, the body was raised and was very physical. This proves the body that came from the grave could not decay or fade away. It is a spiritual body because nature does not animate nor empower it. It is animated and empowered by supernatural life, not natural.

We read it’s not made by hands in a poetic sense of comparing what man makes to things that fail and cannot last forever. It not only abides in the natural realm as immortal when changed and made so by God in resurrection, but it can enter the heavenly realm obviously as Jesus’ body did in His ascension. Angels abide there, and we know they have bodies. We will be able to enter they and enter earth as well.
(2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
The first clause mentions how IN THIS we groan. That is referring to our present mortal bodies that cause us pain and suffering due to their mortality. THIS mortal body makes us cry out and long for a body that is not subject to such things like sickness and mostly death.

Then Paul used the idea of CLOTHING by saying the souls that formerly inhabited the tent of mortal body can also be considered to be naked and requiring clothing of a new more perfect body. This natural body is like a garment that can be put off.

Man is not complete without a body. And because this mortal one makes us groan, and causes us to long for something better, we want a body that is immortal. We would not want such a thing if we were never meant to be immortal. But we lost that giving cause for us to want it again.

It’s a house from heaven in the same sense Jesus’ resurrected body is said to be from heaven, though clearly physical. This is not referring to the body with which he was born as advocates of divine flesh say it is. It is His resurrected body.

The idea is also seen that Paul longed for this to occur while he was still alive, for only in that sense could a person refer to changing bodies as though changing clothing.
(3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
He continues the idea of the body thought of as clothing. When resurrection takes place we will not be without a permanent body. So, far the BODY refers solely to the human body as I claim your reference to being absent from the body breaks that continuity when you claim that is not the human body. You said it was singular tense, but so was tabernacle and house, and they obviously refer to the human body in the states of mortal and immortal. So that proves the singular tense in your argument does not work to say the body from which we become absent is not the human body.
(4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
The idea of the new body being like clothing, as well as a permanent temple, is continued.

Again, tabernacle is singular. It’s like speaking of our bodies using a singular tense in a discussion as follows: “The human body is not intended to be eternal in its current stated…” That uses the singular tense and is a perfectly sound manner of speaking in referring to the human body.

Mortality is swallowed up of life just as Paul stated in 1 Cor 15, where he also spoke of the human body being changed, not exchanged as if we drop and abandon the current body without it being altered into a new one like Jesus’ body was in His resurrection. We shall experience just what He did.
1 Corinthians 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Back to 1 Cor 5:
(5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
He said God intends us to have an immortal body as Her did Adam to begin with. It’s the original plan and it’s not abandoned. This is the same kind of statement we find also in 1 Cor 15 again. There Paul said bodies are given by God to things according to their purpose. Our bodies must be changed and made immortal so that we adapt to the existences He planned for us to experience.

That’s why the Holy Ghost baptism is called an earnest. It’s a downpayment for what we shall get later, and this later element is the immortal body and existence that can enter the heavenlies realms like angels pass between earth and heaven.

The Holy Ghost baptism is actually a guarantee we shall live eternally. And that requires a new body.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Paul’s confidence derives from the fact that the Holy Ghost is an earnest and guarantee of an eternal existence. And he says the body in which we are at home, that is also the same tabernacle that he started to call clothing, is the human mortal body. This proves your idea is wrong about this verse. The same HOME of the body is repeated from having been first mentioned in the first verse about the human body. It’s a tent or tabernacle, but nevertheless a HOME for the soul. So, the idea is that while we remain at home in a tabernacle that is temporal, we are simply absent from the Lord.

continued..
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Last edited by mfblume; 10-17-2015 at 05:59 PM.
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  #88  
Old 10-17-2015, 05:59 PM
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

Paul also brought the most recent verses into this verse, along with the home of the soul in verse 1. Because we are guaranteed an eternal existence by virtue of the Holy Ghost being an earnest, giving us confidence, since we are not in immortal bodies yet we know existence in them means absence from the Lord. We are only with the Lord when resurrection occurs.

1 Thess 4 mentions this note, that we are only with the Lord after the resurrection when we are forever with Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
For those who claim we are already with the Lord because we’re saved, Paul knew the Lord before He wrote 1 Thessalonians 4, and yet he still said we would LATER ever be with the Lord, indicating the sense of being with the Lord was not in effect when he wrote that. Yes, we are spiritually with Christ, but the reason Paul said we are not in 1 Thess 4 and this verse in 2 Cor 5 is the fact that he is speaking in body as opposed to in spirit. We are not with Him in Body. Only in spirit now. But we shall be with him in body.
(7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
This little sentence is a vital one! We walk not by sight because we cannot see the Lord physically. He physically left and He shall most physically return. And it is not a walk by sight when you cannot physically see. In this it’s inability to see the Lord because we are not with Him physically. It takes faith to know we are walking with Him spiritually but not faith to know we walk with Him physically.

This proves we shall indeed physically see him. He stated that we are absent from the Lord while the soul is in this mortal tent, to contrast the fact that death ushers the soul, the real us, into the physical presence of Christ’s immortal body. The soul leaves the body at death. It then becomes naked, but at least free of the cause of groaning which is the burdensome mortality of the natural body. It’s a relief from the groaning, but we still seek to be clothed upon with a new body. We then become absent from any human body for a time before the resurrection.

(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
He has the same confidence that there is an eternal existence, again by virtue of the Holy Ghost being a downpayment and guarantee, as he does in there being an absence from this mortal body so we can be present with the Lord. He would rather be free of the groaning in a mortal tabernacle than be clothed with a mortal clothing. But of course the greater hope is not only freedom from the mortal body at death, but also clothed upon by an immortal house. The connection of a RATHER of a desire is connected to the GROANING in verse in in a mortal body. This proves the absence from the body is from the physical human body that is mortal.
(9) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
This touches upon 1 Cor 15’s note of resurrection that says some shall have already died when the resurrection occurs, having left their bodies to be with the Lord in Heaven in soul alone, and some will still be alive. Those of us who are alive when the Lord comes and when we receive a new body that is the old one changed, must be accepted of Him at that time that we are NOT absent of body. In other words, if we are still clothed upon in mortal flesh when Jesus comes, we better be accepted of Him in that state.

This also proves the absence from body is absence from the human mortal body. It connects us to 1 Cor 15 which is obviously speaking about human bodies in being alive or dead when Jesus comes.


And those absent from the body likewise better be accepted of Him. So, Paul’s statement of being accepted of Him whether absent fromn the body or not absent from the body perfectly shows the same note in 1 Cor 15 about Jesus coming when some have died but others are still alive. ALL are changed, though not all are dead and absent from the body when that occurs.

We must all be accepted of Him when he comes, because the second coming of the Lord takes us to the white throne judgment!
(10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (11) Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
This proves I was correct in saying the resurrection takes all, who were both dead in body and living in body, to the white throne.
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  #89  
Old 10-17-2015, 09:18 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Preterism or Maui Wowii

Thank you for taking the time to post that, brother Blume. I will respond later when I get a chance to go over it.
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  #90  
Old 10-17-2015, 09:52 PM
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Thank you for taking the time to post that, brother Blume. I will respond later when I get a chance to go over it.
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