God vs the Constitution

[Esaias]

lol

[shazeep]

wow, the Holy Spirit is down to 9%?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Which would you prefer - America operating under the law of God as written in the Holy Bible? Or America operating under the Constitution?

If the US operated under the bible, would there be amendments made to scriptures such as "slaves obey your masters...eph 6:5"???

Will judaism be the official national religion or christianity??

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

If the US operated under the bible, would there be amendments made to scriptures such as "slaves obey your masters...eph 6:5"???

Will judaism be the official national religion or christianity??

If YOU operated under the Bible, would there be amendments made, would your religion be Judaism or Christianity?

smh

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If YOU operated under the Bible, would there be amendments made, would your religion be Judaism or Christianity?

smh

Don't avoid the obvious conclusions by "shaking your head." Those are legitimate questions, and you know it.

Slavery would be sanctioned today per Ephesians 6:5 "Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling; and do it with a sincere heart, as though you were serving Christ" unless YOU decide to interpret that scripture differently.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Don't avoid the obvious conclusions by "shaking your head." Those are legitimate questions, and you know it.

They are not legitimate questions, unless mine are as well. Do you follow the Bible? Do you accept what it says? Then there is the answer to your questions.

Slavery would be sanctioned today per Ephesians 6:5 "Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling; and do it with a sincere heart, as though you were serving Christ" unless YOU decide to interpret that scripture differently.

The scripture stands as written. Servants (douloi, slaves) are to obey their masters sincerely as if serving Christ.

Please notice that it nowhere says 'a society which does not have slaves must now have them'.

Still shaking my head.

[Esaias]

Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

The lawyers were the ones 'skilled in the law' of God. They should have known God's law, and should have been teaching it. However, according to Christ, they had 'taken away the key of knowledge'. They refused to 'enter in', and those who were entering in they hindered.

They refused to enter into what? They were hindering people from entering into what?

Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh_10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

It is clear that the lawyers, responsible for knowing and teaching the law of God, refused to enter the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is synonymous with "life". It is a straight gate and narrow way that leads to life, that is, the Kingdom of God. And just to make sure we know this is what the Lord was referring to, that these supposed experts of the law of God were both refusing to enter the Kingdom, and preventing others from entering the Kingdom, we have the parallel account in Matthew:

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! [B]for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

And looking at the context in our Lord's denunciations of the scribes, Pharisees, lawyers, all the religious leaders of the day - the theologians, the preachers and teachers of the Bible - those denunciations are directed against them for their hypocrisy in not actually obeying God's law, and teaching others to break God's commandments and not follow his law, by their man-made traditions, man-made ideas, man-made doctrines and teachings.

So we see that the enemies of Christ were true humanists. They exalted human ideas and human reasonings and human traditions against God's revealed Law, the Bible. Their teachings made a way for people to disobey the actual commandments of God. They did this while maintaining an air of piety. They claimed to be following God, they claimed to be teaching 'the Bible', yet they were liars and hypocrites because they rejected obedience to God's actual commandments and taught others to live in rebellion as well. They taught people to follow the wisdom of man instead of the revealed wisdom of God.

They took away the key of knowledge, and prevented people from entering into God's kingdom.

In one of the verses quoted above, Matthew 19:17, the Lord Jesus said '"but if you will enter into life keep the commandments." We see that entering into life, that is, entering into the Kingdom of God, requires keeping the commandments of God. It is part and parcel of the Kingdom of God. What is a Kingdom? Is it not a GOVERNMENT? And how can there be a kingdom apart from its laws, its jurisdiction? So then, entering into the Kingdom of God, which is entering into life itself - true life - involves the commandments of God, it involves actual obedience to the divinely revealed Law of God.

That is the 'key of knowledge', the Law of God. By twisting the Law of God, by setting up man-made ideas and man-made laws in place of the Law of God, the 'experts' keep people from entering the Kingdom of God. And thereby keep people from entering into Life.

Here is more proof:

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Notice: God's people are destroyed for 'lack of knowledge'. The key of knowledge leads to the Kingdom, and that is Life. So to be kept out of the Kingdom, is to be destroyed, it is death, it is decay, it is ruin and destruction. The lack of knowledge leads to the opposite of the Kingdom - destruction. The parallel statement in the second part of the verse confirms it: "seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God..." Rejecting knowledge and forgetting the Law of God are the same thing. The Law of God is the key of knowledge that enables one to enter into the Kingdom of God.

The Law of God is the key of knowledge that enables one to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Please note: I am not saying one is 'justified by the deeds of the law', or that one is saved merely by old covenant law keeping. I am saying that obedience to the commandments of God and entering the Kingdom of God are united according to the scriptures, in such a way that they cannot be separated. What God hath joined together let no man put asunder!

When one sees that the Kingdom of God is NOT about 'going to heaven', but is all about the WILL OF GOD BEING DONE, the revealed will of God being OBEYED and carried out, then one can see how entering the Kingdom depends on the commands of God. One cannot 'carry out the will of God', one cannot 'obey God' without obeying God's commandments! How could it be otherwise?

Can you obey the United States government without actually obeying the laws of the United States?

Of course not. Neither can you obey God without obeying His laws, statutes, commandments, and judgments. And this is the entire point of the new covenant! Here, let us prove it:

Remember, Jesus said unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. We already saw how entering the Kingdom of God and entering into life and the key of knowledge and keeping the commandments and rejecting man-made traditions and teachings that conflict with the Word of God are all tied together. Let's see it again, from another angle. For this is witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Jesus and his apostles did not introduce some new fangled doctrine spun out of whole cloth.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The promise of the Spirit, of the new birth, is the promise of obedience to the statutes and judgments, the LAW, of God!

Here it is again:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The New Covenant is about God's Law being written in the heart of the people of God. This is what identifies God's people, they have God's Law written in their heart, not man's traditions, man's teachings, man's ideas. God's people are decidedly not humanists, they are Biblicists.

(cont. in next post)

[Esaias]

This is confirmed in the new testament!

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant whereby God's laws are put into the minds and hearts of His people, replacing their humanistic ideas and idolatrous worship of the inventions of man, their traditions of men, their vain philosophical ideas which all God hating humanists put forward as replacements for the Law of God.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Paul taught the same thing. The purpose of Christ's coming, his death, burial, and resurrection, was so that the righteousness of the law would in fact be fulfilled in those who follow the Spirit. The Spirit is life, the Spirit produces honest and hearty obedience to the law of God. It is the carnal, unregenerate mind which is not subject to the law of God, does not obey God's law, does not follow it. Indeed, the carnal unregenerate mind CANNOT. Why? Because the carnal unregenerate mind is the mind of REBELLION AGAINST THE LAW OF GOD. It is by definition rebellion against God. But those who have the Spirit, are not in the flesh, that is, they are not carnal in their mind. They are not in rebellion against the Law of God. They are in fact pleasing to God. They do in fact have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in them. The Law has indeed been written in their very heart and upon their mind. The Spirit in them is the new Spirit, the Spirit of YHVH, the Spirit of JESUS CHRIST, producing obedience to the commandments of God. Just like the prophets foretold.

Just like Jesus said.

So then, those who think that man ought to live by some human, man-made philosophy instead of the Word of God, which is the TRUTH, are those who refuse to enter in, prevent others from entering, take away the key of knowledge, fail to enter life, fail to enter the Kingdom, have not entered the new covenant, do not 'show the work of the law written upon their heart', are carnal, enmity against God (opposed to God and His Ways), cannot please God, are not subject to the law of God, cannot be by simple definition, and will not enter into life.

A true Christian, one in the new covenant, one truly born of the Spirit of God, the BIBLE Spirit, who has experienced BIBLE salvation, as defined and explained by THE BIBLE, as described by the WORD OF GOD, is someone who has lain aside all traditions of men and their ideas, including their political ideas, their ethical ideas, their moral ideas, their spiritual ideas, ALL THAT WHICH PERTAINS TO THE OLD MAN HAS BEEN CRUCIFIED. That has all been replaced with God's ideas, God's laws, God's statutes, God's judgments, God's ways, God's declarations, God's wisdom, as revealed by the prophets of God, as written in the Word of God, as interpreted and taught by Jesus Christ and His apostles.

The Bible wins EVERY TIME for a true born again child of God. Against ALL comers, against ALL idols, whether political, social, personal, religious (it's ALL religious, in fact), or whatever it may be. EVERY idea that exalts itself against the knowledge of God is brought into captivity to obedience to Christ.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
--- including political ideas which have a strong hold on people's minds---
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Including every political thought.

[Esaias]

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

When we are advised to seek unto the 'experts' in arcane 'knowledge' and 'wisdom', we ought to seek unto God. We ought to get our wisdom and knowledge and direction from God, not unto those who dredge up the dead philosophers of the past (Plato, Aristotle, Bacon?); we should go to the law and the testimony. Indeed, whatever does not agree with the law and the testimony, is darkness.

Does the Constitution agree with the law and the testimony? Remember, if it does not agree with the law and the testimony, it is because it is full of darkness, it is because it has no light. Those who promote any political system, or any ethical system, that does not agree with the law and the testimony, have no light in them. They have no wisdom, they are stupid, foolish, and evil, full of darkness.

That's God's opinion of the matter. How do we know that's his opinion? Because he said it! We just read it.

God's people have the same opinion, and are marked by the same characteristic of the law and the testimony, because they are the children of Light:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The dragon, the ruling power of the world (kosmos, the world 'system' or 'order') hates and seeks to wage war against the remnant of the seed of the Israel of God, who are characterised as those who 'keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.'

The children of God judge things by the Word of God. They look to the law and the testimony to judge whether any advice, counsel, or concepts are full of light (wisdom) or darkness (evil, foolishness).

So then, let us look at the Constitution, and see if it agrees with the law and the testimony of the Almighty, to see if it is indeed full of light... or full of darkness. Dare we? I say, yes! For, we are to 'prove all things' (including the Constitution). How are we to prove all things? By the Word of God. How else is anything to be tested and proven? And we are to hold fast that which is good. What is good? How would we know? Because it agrees with the Word of God. Good is whatever God says is good, and evil is whatever God says is evil.

So then, if the Constitution agrees with the Word of God, with the law and the testimony, then it is full of light, it is full of God's wisdom and Word. But if it agrees not, then it is full of darkness, it is void of God's wisdom and Word. Unfortunately, many professing Christians would prefer to hold fast that which is not good, and would prefer to reject that which is good. They will even call evil, good! And Good, evil! They will say a Constitution that fails the law and testimony test of God's Word and which is full of darkness and dead men's bones is good, and the Word of God, the Holy Bible, is evil! They won't put it that way, but really, what does it mean to suggest men should live by something full of darkness, and that men should oppose being governed by the Word of God which is the Light and Life of mankind?

But before we do that...

...let's look at the opinions of some AMERICANS prior to the establishment of the Constitution. The following sources are among the foundational political and ideological sources out of which 'America' sprang. The opinions held forth in the following quotes, if repeated and championed today, would be RIDICULED and SCORNED by today's 'patriotic, America-loving Christians'. Christians today in America lament about how bad things have become, and seem to fancy themselves 'conservatives' holding on to our 'great American heritage'. They get all warm and fuzzy inside when they hear politicians and talk radio hosts and preachers speak about 'our Christian roots', or about the 'Christian heritage of America'. Well, let's look at the actual heritage of America. I am 100 percent convinced that most of the so called 'conservative, American Christians' would consider as hateful, stupid, arrogant, misguided, blinded, or downright 'Antichrist' anyone who held to the very same ideals which this nation was originally founded on.

From the Preamble to the 1682 Frame of Government for Pennsylvania, written by William Penn:

When the great and wise God had made the world, of all his creatures it pleased him to choose man his deputy to rule it...

This the Apostle teaches in divers of his epistles: "The law," says he, "was added because of transgressions." In another place, "Knowing that the law was not made for the righteous man; but for the disobedient and ungodly, for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, and for manstealers, for liars, for perjured persons," etc.; but this is not all, he opens and carries the matter of government a little further: "Let every soul be subject to the higher powers; for there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God: whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil: wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." "He is the minister of God to thee for good." "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but for conscience' sake."

This settles the divine right of government beyond exception, and that for two ends: first, to terrify evildoers; secondly, to cherish those that do well; which gives government a life beyond corruption and makes it as durable in the world, as good men shall be. So that government seems to me a part of religion itself, a thing sacred in its institution and end. For, if it does not directly remove the cause, it crushes the effects of evil and is, as such (though a lower, yet), an emanation of the same Divine Power that is both author and object of pure religion; the difference lying here, that the one is more free and mental, the other more corporal and compulsive in its operations; but that is only to evildoers; government itself being otherwise as capable of kindness, goodness, and charity, as a more private society. Source.

Compact of 1638, Portsmouth, Rhode Island

The 7th Day of the First Month, 1638.
We whose names are underwritten do hereby solemnly in the presence of Jehovah incorporate ourselves into a Bodie Politick and as He shall help, will submit our persons, lives and estates unto our Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and to all those perfect and most absolute laws of His given in His Holy Word of truth, to be guided and judged thereby. (see Wikipedia article on Portsmouth Compact, includes text)

Fundamental Agreement, or Original Constitution of the Colony of New Haven, June 4, 1639

THE 4th day of the 4th month, called June, 1639, all the free planters assembled together in a general meeting, to consult about settling civil government, according to GOD, and the nomination of persons that might be found, by consent of all, fittest in all respects for the foundation work of a church, which was intended to be gathered in Quinipiack. After solemn invocation of the name of GOD, in prayer for the presence and help of his spirit and grace, in those weighty businesses, they were reminded of the business whereabout they met, (viz.) for the establishment of such civil order as might be most pleasing unto GOD, and for the choosing the fittest men for the foundation work of a church to be gathered. For the better enabling them to discern the mind of GOD, and to agree accordingly concerning the establishment of civil order, Mr. John Davenport propounded divers queries to them publicly, praying them to consider seriously in the presence and fear of GOD, the weight of the business they met about, and not to be rash or slight in giving their votes to things they understood not; but to digest fully and thoroughly what should be propounded to them, and without respect to men, as they should be satisfied and persuaded in their own minds, to give their answers in such sort as they would be willing should stand upon record for posterity.

This being earnestly pressed by Mr. Davenport, Mr. Robert Newman was intreated to write, in characters, and to read distinctly and audibly in the hearing of all the people, what was propounded and accorded on, that it might appear, that all consented to matters propounded, according to words written by him.

Query I. WHETHER the scriptures do hold forth a perfect rule for the direction and government of all men in all duties which they are to perform to GOD and men, as well in families and commonwealth, as in matters of the church ? This was assented unto by all, no man dissenting, as was expressed by holding up of hands. Afterwards it was read over to them, that they might see in what words their vote was expressed. They again expressed their consent by holding up their hands, no man dissenting.

Query II. WHEREAS there was a covenant solemnly made by the whole assembly of free planters of this plantation, the first day of extraordinary humiliation, which we had after we came together, that as in matters that concern the gathering and ordering of a church, so likewise in all public officers which concern civil order, as choice of magistrates and officers, making and repealing laws, dividing allotments of inheritance, and all things of like nature, we would all of us be ordered by those rules which the scripture holds forth to US; this covenant was called a plantation covenant, to distinguish it from a church covenant. which could not at that time be made a church not being then gathered, but was deferred till a church might be gathered, according to GOD. It was demanded whether all the free planters do hold themselves bound by that covenant, in all businesses of that nature which are expressed in the covenant, to submit themselves to be ordered by the rules held forth in the scripture t

THIS also was assented unto by all, and no man gainsayed it; and they did testify the same by holding up their hands, both when it was first propounded, and confirmed the same by holding up their hands when it was read unto them in public. John Clark being absent, when the covenant was made, doth now manifest his consent to it. Also Richard Beach, Andrew Law, Goodman Banister, Arthur Halbridge, John Potter, Robert Hill, John Brocket, and John Johnson, these persons, being not admitted planters when the covenant was made, do now express their consent to it. Source.

Wow, what a bunch of religious bigots and misguided fools the original 'Founding Fathers' were! I believe someone here on this forum claimed any who held to such views held to the views of ANTICHRIST!!

[shazeep]