How old do you think the universe is?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jason B

So you believe there was death before sin?

Death of what? Death of plants? Death of animals? Death of man? Or do you believe that once upon a time that lions ate salads?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jason B

So you believe there was death before sin?

The only death that did not exist before sin was with man, not plants and animals. JW's promoted the plants and animals with no death and it caught on. Those cartoony pulp booklets really work!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Death of what? Death of plants? Death of animals? Death of man? Or do you believe that once upon a time that lions ate salads?

Death of all of the above, but specifically animals and people. I'm not sure we can qualify plant "life" or plant "death" in the same manner as the death of animals or man. That said, under my view, even plant death isn't a problem, plants are created on day 3, man on day 6.

And why would it be a problem to believe lions would eat "salads"? Though I'd say grass, fruits, veggies would be more accurate.

Consider in the original creation that lions were given plants to eat.....


And to EVERY BEAST of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given EVERY GREEN HERB FOR MEAT: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:30?-?31

And so shall it be in the new creation:

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the LION SHALL EAT STRAW like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord .
Isaiah 65:25 KJV

Yeah, not seeing the problem.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Death of all of the above, but specifically animals and people. I'm not sure we can qualify plant "life" or plant "death" in the same manner as the death of animals or man. That said, under my view, even plant death isn't a problem, plants are created on day 3, man on day 6.

And why would it be a problem to believe lions would eat "salads"? Though I'd say grass, fruits, veggies would be more accurate.

Consider in the original creation that lions were given plants to eat.....


And to EVERY BEAST of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given EVERY GREEN HERB FOR MEAT: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:30?-?31

And so shall it be in the new creation:

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the LION SHALL EAT STRAW like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord .
Isaiah 65:25 KJV

Yeah, not seeing the problem.

Doesn't mean aninals did not die, though.

And Isaiah's reference is not the literal animals, I believe. It's Jew (clean) and Gentile (unclean).

Look at all the pairs of animals and notice they're a clean and unclean together.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Doesn't mean animals did not die, though.

And Isaiah's reference is not the literal animals, I believe. It's Jew (clean) and Gentile (unclean).

Look at all the pairs of animals and notice they're a clean and unclean together.

Imagine, if Adam couldn't kill a mosquito?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Imagine, if Adam couldn't kill a mosquito?

Oh no!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The only death that did not exist before sin was with man, not plants and animals. JW's promoted the plants and animals with no death and it caught on. Those cartoony pulp booklets really work!

I disagree. Your view is wrought with textual problems.

First, you say that only mans death didn't exist before sin, but on what basis? Not the text, because Genesis 1 puts the creation of animal and human life on the same day. Genesis 1:24-31

Second, if you have animal death for thousands, millions, or billions of years, you have the problem that God said He gave EVERY beast the green herb as food on the day He created them, Genesis 1:30

Third, God looked His creation and claimed it was very good. (Gen 1:31). Your theory proposes death, carnage, catastrophe (ice age), and disease all before day 6.

Fourth, and a bigger problem, is your view limits death to mans death, whereas the scripture plainly teaches all of the creation was negatively affected by Adam's sin and the resulting curse:

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: CURSED IS THE GROUND FOR THY SAKE; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Genesis 3:17?-?18 KJV

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:12 KJV

For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Romans 8:19?-?21 NLT

Fifth, your time frame, which has animals existing millions of years before man, when God created them all on day 6.


Has nothing to do with "cartoony booklets"

Originally Posted by mfblume

Doesn't mean aninals did not die, though.

And Isaiah's reference is not the literal animals, I believe. It's Jew (clean) and Gentile (unclean).

Look at all the pairs of animals and notice they're a clean and unclean together.

Animals did die....after the curse.

I think you're reading into Isaiah a weird allegorical interpretation, but thats your prerogative.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jason B

I disagree. Your view is wrought with textual problems.

So you say.

First, you say that only mans death didn't exist before sin, but on what basis? Not the text, because Genesis 1 puts the creation of animal and human life on the same day. Genesis 1:24-31

On the entirety of the bible. First of all, nothing states animals did not die before sin. And I believe there was a creation without any man whatsoever before Day one of Genesis.

Second, if you have animal death for thousands, millions, or billions of years, you have the problem that God said He gave EVERY beast the green herb as food on the day He created them, Genesis 1:30

The basis of my thought is that Genesis 6 days are renovation, not creation. New start. Former creation that was absent of man never was part of this new start.

Third, God looked His creation and claimed it was very good. (Gen 1:31). Your theory proposes death, carnage, catastrophe (ice age), and disease all before day 6.

Before day one! Huge difference.

Fourth, and a bigger problem, is your view limits death to mans death, whereas the scripture plainly teaches all of the creation was negatively affected by Adam's sin and the resulting curse:

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: CURSED IS THE GROUND FOR THY SAKE; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Genesis 3:17?-?18 KJV

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:12 KJV

For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Romans 8:19?-?21 NLT

Not one of those verses says anything about death not existing for animals. And NLT?????
Not even a translation.

Fifth, your time frame, which has animals existing millions of years before man, when God created them all on day 6.

Not if the six days are renovation after an obliterated world beforehand.

Psalm 104:30 recounts the six days in sequence as in Genesis 1. And says the earth was RENEWED

You are making claims about my belief without even knowing the details of my belief. And what you claimed is a strawman of what I believe. It would be best to learn the details of my claim before making conclusions based upon a faulty understanding of what I believe.

Has nothing to do with "cartoony booklets"


Animals did die....after the curse.

I think you're reading into Isaiah a weird allegorical interpretation, but thats your prerogative.

Brother, there's been a LOT of study into my conclusions. The same chapter Isa 11 that mentions the wolf and lamb says that Jesus would have the seven spirits of God on Him to make Him judge righteously and not after the eyes.

Isaiah 11:3-4 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: (4) But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


Jesus said He had that way back in the first advent.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

John 8:15-16 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. (16) And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

And all of that is in association with Christ coming as son of David in Isa 11. And the branch, stem and root figurative speech sets the pace for the speech that follows.

You really need to not give knee-jerk reactions to something you never heard before and an interpretation you should research a little more before you think you have it nailed.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Imagine, if Adam couldn't kill a mosquito?

Imagine, if he didnt need to.

You think we'll have to worry about mosquito bites in the new heavens and earth?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Imagine, if he didnt need to.

You think we'll have to worry about mosquito bites in the new heavens and earth?

Do you believe mosquitos were actual mosquitos which drank blood? Were there maggots? Ants? Where there fish like we have today? I mean, if nothing died, then nothing could be killed? Adam must of stepped on a "creeping thing" while walking around the garden?