The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

which flows to the whole view of salvation and it gets skewed so badly it basically is antinomian salvation. Which is salvation without regards to law. Which John 15 clearly teaches against along with

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Now you are claiming salvation is tied to the Law?

Wow. Unbelievable.

Shall I post the scores of Scriptures otherwise? Perhaps I'll start with Galatians, throw in some Romans, mix in some Hebrews.... nevermind. Let me pick my jaw up.

Abiding in Him, then fruit come. We don't produce fruit to abide in Him.

Your FAVORITE translation/paraphrase (beautifully stated I might add):

4"Live in me. Make your home in me just as I do in you. In the same way that a branch can't bear grapes by itself but only by being joined to the vine, you can't bear fruit unless you are joined with me.

5-8"I am the Vine, you are the branches. When you're joined with me and I with you, the relation intimate and organic, the harvest is sure to be abundant. Separated, you can't produce a thing. Anyone who separates from me is deadwood, gathered up and thrown on the bonfire. But if you make yourselves at home with me and my words are at home in you, you can be sure that whatever you ask will be listened to and acted upon. This is how my Father shows who he is—when you produce grapes, when you mature as my disciples.

9-10"I've loved you the way my Father has loved me. Make yourselves at home in my love. If you keep my commands, you'll remain intimately at home in my love. That's what I've done—kept my Father's commands and made myself at home in his love.

11-15"I've told you these things for a purpose: that my joy might be your joy, and your joy wholly mature. This is my command: Love one another the way I loved you. This is the very best way to love. Put your life on the line for your friends. You are my friends when you do the things I command you. I'm no longer calling you servants because servants don't understand what their master is thinking and planning. No, I've named you friends because I've let you in on everything I've heard from the Father.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

well... sorry but you do not read what we say and you ignore the paradigm you create saying one thing then cutting your theological throat with the end result. It's been the same issue for a very long time when dealing with this subject. It's not just you but a theological community... Works(context) to you are forensic conerning salvation and not intrinsic. Jesus clearly teaches "to enter" life we are going to be judged of having done his will. PERIOD END OF STORY thus FAITH IN CONTEXT is the WHOLE not a isolate point in time. As I said earlier and showed even a Calvinist like James White even has to admit what "believe/faith" etc... mean. It not about a point but continous thus the "whole" is in view of what salvation is. We are saved from our sins by ABIDING not by one single moment in time and HAVE OBTAINED. "Eternal Salvation" is a future sense when judged a good and faithful servant while being saved from our sins is a present reality based on CONTINUALLY ABIDING(FAITH).

Your Forensic-Intrisic argument loses water quickly. You've ignored those objections though and prefer to sound smart to the Sheeple.

Your view of salvation is so brittle bro. It truly does make me sad.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I'm see repentance, the "turning toward God" as a component inseparable with faith, and if it is, the turning is 'because of' faith. Both are at a heart level.

Agreed. But yet a work. And this is the kicker. This heart level work is not something we do in order to replace any work of God to make us righteous. Same with baptism.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You may not believe BR the way the infant baptismal fans do, but it's the same in type. Salvation by faith + some other things required before God can consider you righteous (including remission of sins by baptism).

No, you did not see my point on this. We are deemed righteous BEFORE baptism, sure. But only because the faith we have that God counts for righteousness is faith that works, or faith that will get baptized.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed. But yet a work. And this is the kicker. This heart level work is not something we do in order to replace any work of God to make us righteous. Same with baptism.

I can't see how baptism is at a "heart level" at all, and it's clearly separable from believing/trusting. When I trust someone, my heart is instantly turned toward them. Baptism doesn't fit these category, Mike.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I can't see how baptism is at a "heart level" at all, and it's clearly separable from believing/trusting. When I trust someone, my heart is instantly turned toward them. Baptism doesn't fit these category, Mike.

I stated this before, but although baptism involves a physical act, and repentance is a heart act, both are still acts. Acts are works. People seem to think that because repentance is done in the heart that it does not make it a work. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not ANY WORK, even repentance, depends SOLELY upon the cross for the actual work that makes us righteous in and of itself, and not the repentance or the baptism.

That is why I have been saying for days now, to no avail it seems, that baptism (as I see baptism) is no more a work than repentance is. Baptism is not something I do that in and of itself makes me righteous. Same with repentance. In fact, before I am baptized, I am deemed righteous due to my faith. But that faith is a "faith that works" kind of faith. It does not matter if the heart works or the flesh works, a work is a work. But the ONLY issue the bible takes with works is that they cannot be used as though they make us righteous without any inkling of the cross.

This is also why I say that if someone has the FAITH that they NEED to be baptized to obey the Lord, and they die before they get baptized, THEY ARE SAVED.

It's not the water or the lowering into the water that does anything. It is the faith I have in me that obeys God that moves God to circumcise my heart from the body of sins of the flesh WHEN BAPTIZED.

It seems those who espouse never a need for baptism circumvent these passages, which NO EARLY CHURCH WRITINGS after the bible ever espoused, let alone the bible!

If baptism is not at the heart level, then IT IS INVALID!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I stated this before, but although baptism involves a physical act, and repentance is a heart act, both are still acts. Acts are works. People seem to think that because repentance is done in the heart that it does not make it a work. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not ANY WORK, even repentance, depends SOLELY upon the cross for the actual work that makes us righteous in and of itself, and not the repentance or the baptism.

That is why I have been saying for days now, to no avail it seems, that baptism (as I see baptism) is no more a work than repentance is. Baptism is not something I do that in and of itself makes me righteous. Same with repentance. In fact, before I am baptized, I am deemed righteous due to my faith. But that faith is a "faith that works" kind of faith. It does not matter if the heart works or the flesh works, a work is a work. But the ONLY issue the bible takes with works is that they cannot be used as though they make us righteous without any inkling of the cross.

This is also why I say that if someone has the FAITH that they NEED to be baptized to obey the Lord, and they die before they get baptized, THEY ARE SAVED.

It's not the water or the lowering into the water that does anything. It is the faith I have in me that obeys God that moves God to circumcise my heart from the body of sins of the flesh WHEN BAPTIZED.

It seems those who espouse never a need for baptism circumvent these passages, which NO EARLY CHURCH WRITINGS after the bible ever espoused, let alone the bible!

If baptism is not at the heart level, then IT IS INVALID!

I should clarify, it is not, as faith, inseparable from a heart level, simultaneous response. In no way was I questioning anyone's baptism as not being "toward Christ" or "in Christ." A heart turned toward God in repentance, and a heart consecrated in Christ at baptism. I understanding these are expressions of heart, but they are now expressions of a regenerated heart... a heart that was turned toward God upon faith. It is not a conscious effort. It is not a labored action. It is instantaneous, New Birth, new life and righteous accounting by God by the one who simply believed and accepted the marvelous gift of God.

That's a misnomer to suggest I intended otherwise, Mike. I have no doubt that you believe baptism is a heart level response to God -- though as you can see above, it does not fit the category of faith. To say they are apples-to-apples only contradicts what you are saying. Baptism is a result of faith, not a parallel to faith.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I should clarify, it is not, as faith, inseparable from a heart level, simultaneous response. In no way was I questioning anyone's baptism as not being "toward Christ" or "in Christ." A heart turned toward God in repentance, and a heart consecrated in Christ at baptism. I understanding these are expressions of heart, but they are now expressions of a regenerated heart... a heart that was turned toward God upon faith. It is not a conscious effort. It is not a labored action. It is instantaneous, New Birth, new life and righteous accounting by God by the one who simply believed and accepted the marvelous gift of God.

That's a misnomer to suggest I intended otherwise, Mike. I have no doubt that you believe baptism is a heart level response to God -- though as you can see above, it does not fit the category of faith. To say they are apples-to-apples only contradicts what you are saying. Baptism is a result of faith, not a parallel to faith.

I was speaking more of REPENTANCE, though I did mention faith once. Repentance is a conscious action of the heart that requires faith like baptism does.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I was speaking more of REPENTANCE, though I did mention faith once. Repentance is a conscious action of the heart that requires faith like baptism does.

Yeah... we could compare someone going to be baptized and a heart turned toward God in the finest of detail. I see repentance more inseparably tied to the New Birth experience of belief and faith. It's not external to it. Both are immediate at a heart level. Repentance is not even, in its birth, about quitting sin as much as it is about turning TOWARD God, and trusting God. (Sin is a consequence of a unbelief, and a turning back FROM God).

Trying to fit these together in categories is grasping for straws IMO, Mike. It really is.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed. But yet a work. And this is the kicker. This heart level work is not something we do in order to replace any work of God to make us righteous. Same with baptism.

To bottom line it, there are a bunch of really smart theologians that see repentance as a "Work" and a bunch of really smart theologians that scoff at the notion of repentance being a "Work."

So you're gonna have your view and I'm gonna have mine (the correct view that God agrees with, of course!). But when repentance is purely defined and we see it as it really is, I am baffled how it could be a "Work".

Repentance takes place the moment we allow God to walk through the door of our heart and occupy the position of "First place." It is the realization that God is the one who should control us, that His will is greater than ours, that His way is better than ours, and that His sacrifice was the ONLY work that could ever be beneficial for the betterment of our souls.

A "Work" is an effort on our parts that would help us obtain salvation. I'm sorry, Mike, I know you don't like it when I raise this issue, but it still is what it is. In your description of how you "received the Holy Ghost" I cannot see it as anything but a "Work" in order to receive a "gift." You set aside sin so that you could receive a necessary element of salvation (necessary in your view, anyway). In that description you gave us, you told us something that you did. That, in my view, constitutes a, "Work."

But salvation is a complete gift, It is our as soon as we grant Christ permission to be "Lord."

Romans 4:2 Was it because of his good deeds that God accepted him? If so, he would have had something to boast about. But from God's point of view Abraham had no basis at all for pride.


Romans 4:3 For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous."


Romans 4:4 When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive.


Romans 4:5 But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.




Is belief a "Work"? Here in Romans, belief is directly separated from a "Work", and repentance is belief in Christ as Lord.