Hebrews 13:17 question

[loran adkins]

Originally Posted by tithesmeister

sister, there have been some good comments on your question. Which is an excellent question btw. I don’t want to take anything away from what has been said, but i would like to maybe flesh it out a little.

The kjv says it like this . . .

[17] obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: For they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: For that is unprofitable for you.

It is sad that many pastors see the phrase “rule over you” and think that means them. They are supposed to be servants who lead, not pastors who rule. Anyway eb did an excellent job of explaining that.

So who is this verse talking about? Who is the ruler?

Remember that this is a letter to the hebrews. So we should ask “who ruled the hebrews?”

john.3

[1] there was a man of the pharisees, named nicodemus, a ruler of the jews:

Nicodemus (who came to jesus by night) was a ruler of the jews/hebrews. There were others, but he is a good example. At this point he was not a believer in jesus (so he certainly wasn’t a disciple, pastor, or apostle etc.) but he was a ruler.

So, would it be too much of a stretch if the scripture said, “obey nicodemus?” and other rulers of the jews as well, of course. I’m just using him for an example. I hope it helps.

Also, “they watch for your souls” in this context probably should be understood to mean, “they watch for your lives”. Not your spiritual wellbeing, but your very life.


That’s how i understand it to be anyway.

👍

[loran adkins]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Great point. As Jesus said, "the teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." Matthew 23:2. Jesus informed His followers to follow and obey those who taught from the seat of Moses. These were teachers in the synagogue. Nicodemus was part of the Sanhedrin, which also was a ruling body. The Apostle Paul had issues with both groups. Still Paul and Jesus obeyed instruction as the law prescribed, yet didn't follow the hypocritical behaviors of the teachers of the Law. Therefore, while ministers, elders, instruct from the scripture, the instruction is sound but the hypocrisy cannot be obeyed.

There are times we are told to obey unconditionally an individual or individuals who are misusing authority. Lording over God's heritage. Interestingly enough1 Peter 5:3-5 comes with a warning about the master pastor finally arriving. The one who hadn't lorded over God's Heritage is given a crown of life. Obviously the one who had lorded over God's Heritage doesn't get anything but the left foot of fellowship. Everything was discussed among the early Judeans from the seat of Moses. It was the seat of the law giver. The teachers of the law understood that they had to practice what they preached or else those who they were teaching, wouldn't follow, or obey them. Jesus instructed the scriptures shouldn't be hijacked due to the relater's hypocrisy. The word of God is to be obeyed and not the joker who was messing everything up by their own double minded behavior. In this case, shoot the messenger and not the message.

[AllScripture]

Look up the word "obey" in Strong's. It will give you a lot of insight into what is being conveyed in the passage. One thing to note is that the majority of the time the greek word peithō is translated as the English word persuade:

Greek Strong's Number: 3982
Greek Word: πείθω
Transliteration: peithō
Phonetic Pronunciationi'-tho
Root: a primary verb
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Agree, Agreement, Belief, Believe, Believers, Confidence, Confident, Friend, Obedience, Obedient, Obey, Persuade, Trust, Yield

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
persuade 22
trust 8
obey 7
have confidence 6
believe 3
be confident 2
miscellaneous translations 7
[Total Count: 55]

a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexive or passive to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty) :- agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) confident, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Please someone who pastors expound on this scripture and explain accountability. For example: everyone should have a pastor they are accountable to, even pastor's should have a pastor. And pastors will have to give an account to God. Ect


Hebrews 13:17
English Standard Version
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Originally Posted by Amanah

Additional questions

How many people can you pastor and know well enough to give an account for them

If you pastor a home fellowship do you still have a pastor over you

Can a person who doesn't have accountability to anyone be saved

The best and most important level of accountability a pastor can have, is to the local Body of Christ in which he serves.

It shouldn't be a top-down hierarchical model in which all the saints submit to the pastor, and then he submits to a far-off presbyter or a district board somewhere, who, in turn, submit to a bishop or superintendent, all the way up the chain.

That's how the world exemplifies authority. Rather, the shepherd, as slave to Christ, is servant to the sheep, and should give account to them.

Such a servant to the sheep should lead with grace, humility, wisdom, and lovingkindness. His example in these areas should persuade and convince the younger converts that his is a life worth living, and that they should model their Christian conduct after his. They should see that his fruits will become theirs, too, and his rewards, both in this life, and in the life to come, will likewise be theirs.

That is how Hebrews 13:7 is fulfilled.

As far as how many people can a shepherd lead, the answer is, how many are willing to be led? I don't think there is any one single number. It should also be noted, that except in the case of a fledgling assembly, it is important to have multiple shepherds. But if I had to put a number of it, I would say somewhere in the range of 12-20.

Home fellowships, or house churches, as they are usually called, rarely follow the traditional church model. Shepherds are mutually accountable to each other and to the group, like I described above. It's how we do it, and have been doing it, for years. We all stand together as equals, under the supremacy of Christ as Head of the Body.

Can a person who isn't accountable to anyone be saved? Loose cannons sink ships and kill lots of people. There is no "it's just me and Jesus". If you aren't in the Body of Christ, you're lost.