Hebrews 13:17 question

[Amanah]

Please someone who pastors expound on this scripture and explain accountability. For example: everyone should have a pastor they are accountable to, even pastor's should have a pastor. And pastors will have to give an account to God. Ect


Hebrews 13:17
English Standard Version
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

[Amanah]

Additional questions

How many people can you pastor and know well enough to give an account for them

If you pastor a home fellowship do you still have a pastor over you

Can a person who doesn't have accountability to anyone be saved

[Truthseeker]

I do notice it says "them" not "the pastor"

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Please someone who pastors expound on this scripture and explain accountability. For example: everyone should have a pastor they are accountable to, even pastor's should have a pastor. And pastors will have to give an account to God. Ect


Hebrews 13:17
English Standard Version
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

The Greek in this verse is speaking of governing leadership. The word is Hegemony (ἡγεμονία) which everyone should know means supreme rulership in English. Webster's Dictionary Hegemony \hih-JEM-uh-nee\ noun. 1 : preponderant influence or authority over others : domination. 2 : the social, cultural, ideological, or economic influence exerted by a dominant group.

Yet, allow me to first explain something here, the above verse isn't speaking about one leader, one king, one priest over a parish, or a pope, or as Sister Amanah writes in her post, a single pastor. The New Testament doesn't teach one single minister over anything. It clearly teaches a group of elders, at the least two. Jesus sent them out two by two, not one by one. The only place we have one ruler is a husband, which his wife is only to submit to her OWN husband. Placing a minister in a position over another man's wife, or multiple women who are married to their own husbands is how ecclesiastical freak shows are created.

Jesus Christ is the only ruling head as God over His body. I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ. That is the Body of Christ over the individuals Ephesians 5:21. Men submitting themselves to elders. The head of the woman is the man. Women submit themselves to their own husbands, as do his young children Ephesians 5:21-25. Young women and young brides get council from Elder Sisters in the church Titus 2:4-8.
The head of Christ is God, Jesus is the One God, King, and Pastor over the elders, the elder women, and saints of God in the Body of Christ. All people within this Israel of God are all members of the One Body, elders, husbands, wives, brothers, and sisters. All working together. All under One Head which is Christ. The scripture also says, many of you shouldn't become teachers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness, and face a stricter judgment James 3:1. Those who want to be in the ministry have to consider the judgement of God will be heavier on them, on so many levels. It should be a sobering warning, but alas too many blow it off.

Elder Sisters counseling young sisters isn't a hen's meeting. The elder women aren't supposed to busybodies or backbiters 1 Timothy 5:9-15. While 1 Timothy 5:9-15 is speaking of widowed sisters in the church the qualifications are to all the saints and elders. Again, the elder sisters should be instructing the younger sisters to love and obey their own husbands.

Everyone has a pastor they're accountable to, His name is Jesus. Jesus is the head over His Body.

Now, Sister Amanah posted this "everyone should have a pastor they are accountable to, even pastor's should have a pastor. And pastors will have to give an account to God."

The pastor is plural in the New Testament. The only time it is singular is when it is speaking of the Lord as our Pastor. Everyone should have a pastor, that pastor better be the Holy Ghost of the Lord Jesus Christ. ministers, preachers, pastors are in an eldership within their own church family. They are accountable one to another. Yet, everyone is accountable to each other in a church family.

Still, this is an extremely layered subject. Mostly because we are all pretty use to a one man over the congregation rulership. Borrowed from the Eastern and Western Roman Churches. Later the Protestant groups. Also I have to say that there are some great church families who have had only one minister over them. Those men were able to get out of the way of Jesus' Spirit leading the congregation, and have a healthy church family.

But as Truthseeker points out the verse is dealing with plural elders, not a single elder. If it meant a single elder or pastor then he would be submitting to no one. It would therefore mean, obey him who has the dominance over you. Sadly to say there are those who hold to that belief. But those sorts of groups sometimes end up in South America drinking ice cold Kool Aid.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I hit on leadership in another thread. The role of a husband in the Body of Christ. I think it may be appropriate to be revisited in this thread.

https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.co...6&postcount=85

[Amanah]

Thank you Elder Benincasa!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Thank you Elder Benincasa!

You're welcome

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The Greek in this verse is speaking of governing leadership. The word is Hegemony (ἡγεμονία) which everyone should know means supreme rulership in English. Webster's Dictionary Hegemony \hih-JEM-uh-nee\ noun. 1 : preponderant influence or authority over others : domination. 2 : the social, cultural, ideological, or economic influence exerted by a dominant group.

Yet, allow me to first explain something here, the above verse isn't speaking about one leader, one king, one priest over a parish, or a pope, or as Sister Amanah writes in her post, a single pastor. The New Testament doesn't teach one single minister over anything. It clearly teaches a group of elders, at the least two. Jesus sent them out two by two, not one by one. The only place we have one ruler is a husband, which his wife is only to submit to her OWN husband. Placing a minister in a position over another man's wife, or multiple women who are married to their own husbands is how ecclesiastical freak shows are created.

Jesus Christ is the only ruling head as God over His body. I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ. That is the Body of Christ over the individuals Ephesians 5:21. Men submitting themselves to elders. The head of the woman is the man. Women submit themselves to their own husbands, as do his young children Ephesians 5:21-25. Young women and young brides get council from Elder Sisters in the church Titus 2:4-8.
The head of Christ is God, Jesus is the One God, King, and Pastor over the elders, the elder women, and saints of God in the Body of Christ. All people within this Israel of God are all members of the One Body, elders, husbands, wives, brothers, and sisters. All working together. All under One Head which is Christ. The scripture also says, many of you shouldn't become teachers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness, and face a stricter judgment James 3:1. Those who want to be in the ministry have to consider the judgement of God will be heavier on them, on so many levels. It should be a sobering warning, but alas too many blow it off.

Elder Sisters counseling young sisters isn't a hen's meeting. The elder women aren't supposed to busybodies or backbiters 1 Timothy 5:9-15. While 1 Timothy 5:9-15 is speaking of widowed sisters in the church the qualifications are to all the saints and elders. Again, the elder sisters should be instructing the younger sisters to love and obey their own husbands.

Everyone has a pastor they're accountable to, His name is Jesus. Jesus is the head over His Body.

Now, Sister Amanah posted this "everyone should have a pastor they are accountable to, even pastor's should have a pastor. And pastors will have to give an account to God."

The pastor is plural in the New Testament. The only time it is singular is when it is speaking of the Lord as our Pastor. Everyone should have a pastor, that pastor better be the Holy Ghost of the Lord Jesus Christ. ministers, preachers, pastors are in an eldership within their own church family. They are accountable one to another. Yet, everyone is accountable to each other in a church family.

Still, this is an extremely layered subject. Mostly because we are all pretty use to a one man over the congregation rulership. Borrowed from the Eastern and Western Roman Churches. Later the Protestant groups. Also I have to say that there are some great church families who have had only one minister over them. Those men were able to get out of the way of Jesus' Spirit leading the congregation, and have a healthy church family.

But as Truthseeker points out the verse is dealing with plural elders, not a single elder. If it meant a single elder or pastor then he would be submitting to no one. It would therefore mean, obey him who has the dominance over you. Sadly to say there are those who hold to that belief. But those sorts of groups sometimes end up in South America drinking ice cold Kool Aid.

Preach on.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Please someone who pastors expound on this scripture and explain accountability. For example: everyone should have a pastor they are accountable to, even pastor's should have a pastor. And pastors will have to give an account to God. Ect


Hebrews 13:17
English Standard Version
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Sister, there have been some good comments on your question. Which is an excellent question btw. I don’t want to take anything away from what has been said, but I would like to maybe flesh it out a little.

The KJV says it like this . . .

[17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

It is sad that many pastors see the phrase “rule over you” and think that means them. They are supposed to be servants who lead, not pastors who rule. Anyway EB did an excellent job of explaining that.

So who is this verse talking about? Who is the ruler?

Remember that this is a letter to the Hebrews. So we should ask “who ruled the Hebrews?”

John.3

[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

Nicodemus (who came to Jesus by night) was a ruler of the Jews/Hebrews. There were others, but he is a good example. At this point he was not a believer in Jesus (so he certainly wasn’t a disciple, pastor, or apostle etc.) but he was a ruler.

So, would it be too much of a stretch if the scripture said, “obey Nicodemus?” And other rulers of the Jews as well, of course. I’m just using him for an example. I hope it helps.

Also, “they watch for your souls” in this context probably should be understood to mean, “they watch for your lives”. Not your spiritual wellbeing, but your very life.


That’s how I understand it to be anyway.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Sister, there have been some good comments on your question. Which is an excellent question btw. I don’t want to take anything away from what has been said, but I would like to maybe flesh it out a little.

The KJV says it like this . . .

[17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

It is sad that many pastors see the phrase “rule over you” and think that means them. They are supposed to be servants who lead, not pastors who rule. Anyway EB did an excellent job of explaining that.

So who is this verse talking about? Who is the ruler?

Remember that this is a letter to the Hebrews. So we should ask “who ruled the Hebrews?”

John.3

[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

Nicodemus (who came to Jesus by night) was a ruler of the Jews/Hebrews. There were others, but he is a good example. At this point he was not a believer in Jesus (so he certainly wasn’t a disciple, pastor, or apostle etc.) but he was a ruler.

So, would it be too much of a stretch if the scripture said, “obey Nicodemus?” And other rulers of the Jews as well, of course. I’m just using him for an example. I hope it helps.

Also, “they watch for your souls” in this context probably should be understood to mean, “they watch for your lives”. Not your spiritual wellbeing, but your very life.


That’s how I understand it to be anyway.

Great point. As Jesus said, "the teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." Matthew 23:2. Jesus informed His followers to follow and obey those who taught from the seat of Moses. These were teachers in the synagogue. Nicodemus was part of the Sanhedrin, which also was a ruling body. The Apostle Paul had issues with both groups. Still Paul and Jesus obeyed instruction as the law prescribed, yet didn't follow the hypocritical behaviors of the teachers of the Law. Therefore, while ministers, elders, instruct from the scripture, the instruction is sound but the hypocrisy cannot be obeyed.

There are times we are told to obey unconditionally an individual or individuals who are misusing authority. Lording over God's heritage. Interestingly enough1 Peter 5:3-5 comes with a warning about the master pastor finally arriving. The one who hadn't lorded over God's Heritage is given a crown of life. Obviously the one who had lorded over God's Heritage doesn't get anything but the left foot of fellowship. Everything was discussed among the early Judeans from the seat of Moses. It was the seat of the law giver. The teachers of the law understood that they had to practice what they preached or else those who they were teaching, wouldn't follow, or obey them. Jesus instructed the scriptures shouldn't be hijacked due to the relater's hypocrisy. The word of God is to be obeyed and not the joker who was messing everything up by their own double minded behavior. In this case, shoot the messenger and not the message.