Been listening to old debates

augustianian · #1 02-13-2008, 06:51 AM

Downloaded Marvin Hicks vs Guy Woods, and some guy named Weaver. Plus a couple of Robert Bayer debates.

It seems that back in the 70's there was a certain amount of consternation between the UPC and the COC.

When Marvin Hicks debated Dan Billingsley in Dallas, I attended (I was just a kid then) and some of that debate (it's on my IPod) I remember. All of these debates are filled with snide remarks and retorts which makes for a very interesting listen. What would have made them even more flammable would have been a cross examination section, but as it were they just gave 30 minute speeches.

Does anyone else have any memories of that time when the UPC was a little bit more militant?? Seems to me that after the Ankerberg debate the UPC went into a shell, except the occasional David Bernard debate (i.e. the one he did with Gene Cook, which I thought David Bernard won).

Any thoughts??

Sister Alvear · #2 02-13-2008, 06:58 AM

I used to have some old debate tapes...but over the years and moves lost them. I loved to listen to them when I was young especially Marvin Hicks...he was funny...sorry he lost his way...

augustianian · #3 02-13-2008, 09:24 AM

I have found that these guys were very clever. Either one of them, Marvin Hicks or Robert Bayer, would have done better against Walter Martin on the Ankerberg show.

That would have been fun to see, but by then I think Marvin Hicks was out of the UPC...I don't know anything about Robert Bayer.

Apprehended · #4 02-13-2008, 10:59 AM

I've attened quite a few of those debates as far back as the 50s. One of the all time great debaters was the late bro. Welch from Pensacola. Marvin Hicks was just as good and quick witted. Robert Bayer was good too.

The one debate that I attened that I would considered not so much lost by a oneness preacher but lacked in the ability to properly answer the COC preacher which might be considered lost by some was by brother Cannon of Arkansas in Pascagoula, Miss. This took place in the late 60s or 70s. He was just simply not as quick witted as he should have been. While bro. Cannon had the truth, he did not have the speed of retort to match the COC.

That was the only debate that I felt as though some might considered to be lost to one who contended for the error. Had brother Cannon fully understood what happened to the glorified BODY of Jesus, he would have finished off his opponent with a good answer.

Though I did not have any more insight into the final point that decided the issue of Oneness vs. Trini, it had the affect of putting me on a prayerful and honest hearted search for truth on the final point; a search that lasted for a few years.

All in all, those debates have been profitable to me. The first tape that I kept was loaned to me by br. Mangun who received it from Br. Urhsan who was the moderator between a Mr. Toddy and Bro. Gordon Maghee. It was nine hours long reel to reel tapes which I loaned out also. This was in 1962. I never got those tapes back. I had to go to bro. Mangun and explain it. I never felt so badly in all my life. But, I learned a lesson. I don't loan out anything like that any more. Anyway, it was onne of the best debates that I ever heard. Gordon MaGhee shined like a star for Apostolic truth.

augustianian · #5 02-13-2008, 11:23 AM

....you can download that Toddy/Mcgee debate online now.

Kutless · #6 02-13-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augustianian

I have found that these guys were very clever. Either one of them, Marvin Hicks or Robert Bayer, would have done better against Walter Martin on the Ankerberg show.

That would have been fun to see, but by then I think Marvin Hicks was out of the UPC...I don't know anything about Robert Bayer.

were there officially declared winners?

Can you provide a link?

Apprehended · #7 02-13-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augustianian

I have found that these guys were very clever. Either one of them, Marvin Hicks or Robert Bayer, would have done better against Walter Martin on the Ankerberg show.

That would have been fun to see, but by then I think Marvin Hicks was out of the UPC...I don't know anything about Robert Bayer.

There was nothing wrong with the Oneness side in that debate. It was very good as presented by Bro. Urshan and Robert ....oh whatsisname.... The problem came in with the editing. The Oneness bretheren did not have control of the editing.

Apprehended · #8 02-13-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augustianian

....you can download that Toddy/Mcgee debate online now.

Where?

augustianian · #9 02-13-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprehended

There was nothing wrong with the Oneness side in that debate. It was very good as presented by Bro. Urshan and Robert ....oh whatsisname.... The problem came in with the editing. The Oneness bretheren did not have control of the editing.

Well it was a made for tv debate, and they knew this, so I don't think they could use that excuse.

I agree that the oneness argument was presented by Bro. Urshan and Bro. Sabin...but that was the problem. Not to debate it here, but the oneness argument fails, in my opinion, on most counts...and that is more the reason they came off bad and not the editing.

Kutless

Quote:

were there officially declared winners?

Can you provide a link?

As in most debates...there is no "officially declared" winner. That's left up to the listeners. You can watch the debate on YouTube (www.youtube.com)...just enter Walter Martin or Nathaniel Urshan in the search box.

As far as the McGee/Toddy debate...you can buy it here http://www.shiloahbooks.com/books_Oneness.html
or download some of it here...
http://www.goodpreaching.com/media/i...+Magee+Debates

a

Apprehended · #10 02-13-2008, 12:58 PM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by augustianian

Well it was a made for tv debate, and they knew this, so I don't think they could use that excuse.

Of course they knew it. So who is offering an excuse? I am not aware of anyone offering an excuse. Are you? That would be news to me.

Quote:

I agree that the oneness argument was presented by Bro. Urshan and Bro. Sabin...but that was the problem. Not to debate it here, but the oneness argument fails, in my opinion, on most counts...and that is more the reason they came off bad and not the editing.

Did you also hear the unedited version? I did. They, cleverly cut out what they did not want aired on t.v.. The bias was so glaring in the editing that it could not be missed.