Godhead - Line upon Line

[rwdeese]

Although some of you will not understand this approach to Scripture, this is not designed to be a debate. If it ends up going that way, my plan will be just to discuss this topic with a few people through PMs.

Here is my goal. Over the years I have studied the writings of Arians, Unitarians, Oneness and Trinitarians concerning the Godhead. The reason I studied their writings was because we all have a tendency to think we know what the other groups views truly are - quite frankly, most the time we do not. So, what I am proposing is that we attempt to look at Scripture as objectively as possible (which will be very hard for some because you think you are so right), to discover what the author's original intent was concerning his concept of God. Let us pretend, if you will, that we know nothing about God and we are on a journey. We will begin with Genesis and hit the main concepts about God, verse by verse, to discover the unfolding revelation of God. If we do this with the right spirit, we will all learn a great deal from it. Let us endeavor to allow the Word of God to be the final authority. BTW, so that you know, and although some will think this anyway, I do not have an agenda to prove any specific view. This is something I have desired to do for a few years, and I am hoping I found the right forum to do it in.

In order to keep this from getting to out of hand, I will control when we go to the next verse/passage to discuss. I am hoping to learn, and I hope you do to. In my next post I will give the first passage for us to discuss.

Blessings to all

[rwdeese]

Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ok, let us examine what Scripture truly means by "Elohim", the Hebrew word for God here.

Elohim is the plural of Eloah. Trinitarians teach that this proves that God is plural. Arians, Unitarians and Oneness teach that this does not prove any such thing. In fact, Elohim is used for angels, Moses and false gods. So, let's discuss Elohim and do our best to objectively study this word.

[rwdeese]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ok, let us examine what Scripture truly means by "Elohim", the Hebrew word for God here.

Elohim is the plural of Eloah. Trinitarians teach that this proves that God is plural. Arians, Unitarians and Oneness teach that this does not prove any such thing. In fact, Elohim is used for angels, Moses and false gods. So, let's discuss Elohim and do our best to objectively study this word.

Gesenius, Hebrew Language Grammarian, states:

“That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

E. Kautzsch, ed., Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1910), p. 399.

In fact, he calls it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed., nn. 124 g, 132 h). This seems to indicate that the plural form of Eloah was used more for intensification or amplification.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

Gesenius, Hebrew Language Grammarian, states:



In fact, he calls it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed., nn. 124 g, 132 h). This seems to indicate that the plural form of Eloah was used more for intensification or amplification.

So how would this work in Gen 1:1? In the beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth?

Can we substitute Elohim in John 1:1 for the word, God? In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with Elohim and the Word was Elohim?

This verse comes to mind when I think of the plurality of attributes of God. Sometimes there is placed more emphasis on one aspect of God but I suppose if the author wanted to emphasize the all encompassing greatness of God, he might use the word, Elohim, to get that point across.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

[rwdeese]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

So how would this work in Gen 1:1? In the beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth?

Can we substitute Elohim in John 1:1 for the word, God? In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with Elohim and the Word was Elohim?

This verse comes to mind when I think of the plurality of attributes of God. Sometimes there is placed more emphasis on one aspect of God but I suppose if the author wanted to emphasize the all encompassing greatness of God, he might use the word, Elohim, to get that point across.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

In the Sacred Name Bibles, The Scriptures 98 and Restored Name King James Version, the word "Elohim" is used where the word theos (θεος) is found in the Greek text (such as John 1:1 and John 10:36). The editors of these Bibles reason that since the Syriac word "ܐܠܗܐ" (Aloha, cognate with Hebrew Eloah) is found in the Peshitto texts where Old Testament passages are quoted contain "Elohim" in the original Hebrew, this is reason enough to change theos to Elohim. I would simply argue, however, that theos is not a plural noun, so it is not an exact equivalent. For that matter, the Syriac word Aloha is not plural either.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

In the Sacred Name Bibles, The Scriptures 98 and Restored Name King James Version, the word "Elohim" is used where the word theos (θεος) is found in the Greek text (such as John 1:1 and John 10:36). The editors of these Bibles reason that since the Syriac word "ܐܠܗܐ" (Aloha, cognate with Hebrew Eloah) is found in the Peshitto texts where Old Testament passages are quoted contain "Elohim" in the original Hebrew, this is reason enough to change theos to Elohim. I would simply argue, however, that theos is not a plural noun, so it is not an exact equivalent. For that matter, the Syriac word Aloha is not plural either.

Would you have the same objections to using YHWH in place of Kurios in the verses used by NT authors which are evidently taken directly from the OT? (substituting a proper name for a title?)

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

In the Sacred Name Bibles, The Scriptures 98 and Restored Name King James Version, the word "Elohim" is used where the word theos (θεος) is found in the Greek text (such as John 1:1 and John 10:36). The editors of these Bibles reason that since the Syriac word "ܐܠܗܐ" (Aloha, cognate with Hebrew Eloah) is found in the Peshitto texts where Old Testament passages are quoted contain "Elohim" in the original Hebrew, this is reason enough to change theos to Elohim. I would simply argue, however, that theos is not a plural noun, so it is not an exact equivalent. For that matter, the Syriac word Aloha is not plural either.

You have just uncovered one of the major problems in translating Hebrew into either Greek or into English (a concrete. verb based language vs abstract, noun based languages). As a note, there were several hundred Greek words created (or modified) simply in an attempt to accommodate the original Hebrew context (meanings) in both the Septuagint and N.T. scriptures.

As to the question of the term, Elohim. I'll take a review and see if there is anything I might contribute.

[rwdeese]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

Gesenius, Hebrew Language Grammarian, states:

In fact, he calls it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed., nn. 124 g, 132 h). This seems to indicate that the plural form of Eloah was used more for intensification or amplification.

Ok, I wondering we could look at the statement by this Hebrew scholar that says that Elohim is "a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstaction, or of magnitude." Here are a few questions for us to explore:

What would lead us to agree with his statement?

What would lead us to disagree with his statement, in essence, say that since this word is plural, it means that God is a "plural"?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

Ok, I wondering we could look at the statement by this Hebrew scholar that says that Elohim is "a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstaction, or of magnitude." Here are a few questions for us to explore:

What would lead us to agree with his statement?

What would lead us to disagree with his statement, in essence, say that since this word is plural, it means that God is a "plural"?

The rest of the context would lead us to agree with his statement. The singular personal pronouns "I" and "he" that are used with Elohim.


5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat


Also if Elohim is understood in a strictly plural sense then we would have more than one God and the pronouns associated with Elohim would be plural also.

[rwdeese]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

Ok, I wondering we could look at the statement by this Hebrew scholar that says that Elohim is "a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstaction, or of magnitude." Here are a few questions for us to explore:

What would lead us to agree with his statement?

What would lead us to disagree with his statement, in essence, say that since this word is plural, it means that God is a "plural"?

I think agreement with question one would be based upon the word Elohim being used to express any kind of "leader", real or imaginary. In Exodus 7:1, God makes Moses a “god” (Elohim) to Pharaoh. Exodus 22:20 states, “Whoever sacrifices to any god (Elohim) other than the lord must be destroyed." or Judges 6:31: “If Baal really is a god (Elohim), he can defend himself when someone breaks down his altar.” Judges 11:24, the pagan god Chemosh is called Elohim, and in 1 Samuel 5:7, the pagan god Dagon is called Elohim.

I think what Mizpeh brought up is central as well. Put another way, the noun Elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.

Concerning the second statement, some (not all, btw) of those who embrace Trinitarianism would suggest that the Holy Spirit used Elohim as a way to prepare the way for the revelation of the Trinity. Oehler believes that God used Elohim because of "the necessity of a term [to convey] both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1:2, 26)(Gustav F. Oehler, Theology of the Old Testament, p. 88)." So, I guess he is saying that the plural has the potential of reflecting the triune nature of God, therefore, God chose to purposely used it to convey that idea.

Personally, I think the last statement is "reading into the text" one's pre-suppositional doctrine.