Moses talking to God, face to face

[Twisp]

In Exodus 33:11 we have:

Exd 33:11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Whereas in Exodus 33:20:

Exd 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Why the change?

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Twisp

In Exodus 33:11 we have:

Exd 33:11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Whereas in Exodus 33:20:

Exd 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Why the change?

I have wondered about that myself. Not sure of the answer.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Twisp

In Exodus 33:11 we have:

Exd 33:11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Whereas in Exodus 33:20:

Exd 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Why the change?

It wouldn't make sense for the author to say Moses seen God's face and then for him to write in the same account of God saying (Exodus 33:23) "And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Therefore the simplest way to explain this is that speaking face to face was just an expression for an intimate conversation. And if you read the rest of the account after Moses is said to speak to the LORD face to face then you will see that is exactly what happened. The LORD and Moses had a conversation as two men would that were standing face to face.

During that conversation Moses asks God to (Exodus 33:18) "And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory." So it becomes even more apparent that Moses has not seen God at all up to this point for God says to Moses (Exodus 33:20) "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." So in answering Moses' request to see God's glory, God promises Moses that (I paraphrase) he will see his glory but will only be able to see his back and not his face.

[Esther]

Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Esther

Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

And there it says it even plainer. "knew face to face". This is an expression about how close the Lord was to Moses. It is an expression about their relationship. This is not an expression about Moses actually seeing God's face for scripture plainly denies this.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Twisp

In Exodus 33:11 we have:

Exd 33:11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Whereas in Exodus 33:20:

Exd 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Why the change?

"face to face" is metaphor or idiom for person to person.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Twisp

In Exodus 33:11 we have:

Exd 33:11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Whereas in Exodus 33:20:

Exd 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Why the change?

Meaning an in person conversation, It does not depict that he actually viewed the face of God.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Twisp

In Exodus 33:11 we have:

Exd 33:11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Whereas in Exodus 33:20:

Exd 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Why the change?

Since even the most extreme versions of the Documentary Hypothesis have both of these passages coming from the same pen I think it's fair to say that just about everyone rules out an interloper adding one of these verses and thus contradicting the other.

Also, it is reasonable to assume that the writer had no problem with the apparent "contradiction." So, I would begin to try and find an answer in the idioms that are being used while keeping in mind that this actually made sense and was not a contradiction to the original writer and their audience.

A skeptic may doubt and question the veracity of anyone "speaking to God as a friend" - but the harmony of the two passages isn't really in doubt.

[Praxeas]

This topic was already a discussion in the theology debate area.

I posted the following there

Of "back part" the NET bible commentary says

61 tn The plural "my backs" is according to Gesenius an extension plural. The word denotes a locality in general, but that is composed of numerous parts (see GKC §124.b). Kaiser says that since God is a spirit, the meaning of this word could just as easily be rendered "after effects" of his presence (W. C. Kaiser, Jr, "Exodus," in EBC 484). As Driver says, though, while this may indicate just the "afterglow" which he leaves behind him, it was enough to suggest what the full brilliancy of his presence must be (see also Job_26:14; Driver, 363).

Moses asks to see God's Glory

the NET says
49 sn Moses now wants to see the glory of Yahweh, more than what he had already seen and experienced. He wanted to see God in all his majesty. The LXX chose to translate this without a word for "glory" or "honor"; instead they used the pronoun seautou, "yourself"--show me the real You. God tells him that he cannot see it fully, but in part. It will be enough for Moses to disclose to him the reality of the divine presence as well as God's moral nature. It would be impossible for Moses to comprehend all of the true nature of God, for there is a boundary between God and man. But God would let him see his goodness, the sum of his nature, pass by in a flash. B. Jacob says that the glory refers to God's majesty, might, and glory, as manifested in nature, in his providence, his laws, and his judgments. He adds that this glory should and would be made visible to man--that was its purpose in the world (p. 972).

God already met Moses "face to face"...and Moses "saw" God, there I think this was some sort of theophany or even a voice.

Of "face" the ISBE says
Often “my face,” “thy face” is mere oriental circumlocution for the personal pronoun “I,” “me,” “thou,” “thee.” “In thy face” means “in thy presence;” and is often so translated. A very large number of idiomatic Hebrew expressions have been introduced into our language through the medium of the Bible translation. We notice the most important of these phrases.

If God “hides his face” He withdraws His presence, His favor (Deu_32:20; Job_34:29; Psa_13:1; Psa_30:7; Psa_143:7; Isa_54:8; Jer_33:5; Eze_39:23, Eze_39:14; Mic_3:4). Such withdrawal of the presence of God is to be understood as a consequence of man's personal disobedience, not as a wrathful denial of God's favor (Isa_59:2). God is asked to “hide his face,” i.e. to disregard or overlook (Psa_51:9; compare Psa_10:11). This is also the idea of the prayer: “Cast me not away from thy presence” (literally, “face,” Psa_51:11), and of the promise: “The upright shall dwell in thy presence” (literally, “face,” Psa_140:13). If used of men, “to hide the face” expresses humility and reverence before an exalted presence (Exo_3:6; Isa_6:2); similarly Elijah “wrapped his face in his mantle” when God passed by (1Ki_19:13). The “covering of the face” is a sign of mourning (2Sa_19:4 = Eze_12:6, Eze_12:12); a “face covered with fatness” is synonymous with prosperity and arrogance (Job_15:27); to have one's face covered by another person is a sign of hopeless doom, as if one were already dead. This was done to Human, when judgment had been pronounced over him (Est_7:8).


So face to face could simply mean God and Moses had a person to person talk. OF course if God were more than one person that would be a faces to face talk :-)