Was Jesus' human nature "fallen"?

DaveC519 · #1 05-29-2011, 06:03 AM

Greetings all,

I've tried to make this post as short as possible while still getting my point across and offering my question: thanks for your patience in advance.

A common belief in Christianity is that Jesus- the Son of God- was "like us (humans) in every way, but without sin- including not having a 'sin nature'."

In the following verses, we read that the Son of God was "made" like the seed of Abraham in order to make reconciliation for their sins:

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." (Heb 2:16-18 KJV)

Verse 16 is rendered in some other translations (including NKJV) not as "taking on the nature" but as "giving aid":

"16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted." (Heb 2:16-18 NKJV)

In chapter 4 verse 15, the writer of Hebrews- speaking of Christ's temptations- asserts that, although He was tempted, He never succumbed or yielded to temptation: Christ never sinned.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

The general idea behind these verses is commonly understood to be that in order to aid humans in their sin condition, and in order to make propitiation for their sins, it was necessary for the Son of God to be genuinely human in order to fully "heal" the human condition. As Gregory of Nyssa wrote: "what Christ did not assume, he did not heal".

My question is this: if Christ assumed a human nature that was NOT fallen, then how could he "heal" fallen human nature? Pre-fallen human nature was not in need of healing or deliverance or salvation. If Adam and Eve had partaken of the Tree of Life instead of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, it is assumed they would have continued to live on with an un-fallen human nature which was not in need of healing or salvation.

Thoughts?

Austin · #2 05-29-2011, 06:28 AM

Adam and Eve had a fallen nature to begin with or they would not have taken the fruit from the tree, It was afterwards that they realized it. Their spirit was just like ours before it is transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why the tree was in the garden in the first place, to give them life and healing.

If they would have been perfect as God is perfect then there would not have been any death. What the concern of God was is this, even though they had sinned in his presents they still could have taken from the tree and lived. It is not known if one time would have given eternal life in a physical sense or if they would had to eat of the tree several times. I would assume they would had to eat of the tree as needed throughout their life expanding.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by healing the spirit of mankind. After Adams sin there was no healing for the inner man until Jesus sent back the Holy Spirit. Which gave mankind power over a sinful nature, and a new desire to serve righteousness instead of evil.

Without the spirit of God in us we are not mindful of his presents and the things which are right in his sight. If we are religiously trained in rules and holy laws then our mind becomes the ruler of the things of God instead of our nature. In this case we do not have the power to over come sin. This is the state that Adam was in while in the garden. He knew God by sight and hearing. He also knew God by the things God told him and taught him. But he did not know God inwardly which would have given Adam constant conviction in the things which are right and the things which are wrong.

acerrak · #3 05-29-2011, 08:33 AM

Nature is a descriptave term. Adam and eve Sinned. could Jesus have sinned? The answer has been debated for years , but Jesus stated i came to do the will of Him who sent me, and not his own.

Obvious the devil tried to tempt him in the wilderness.

However at the end Jesus became sin for the whole world

2 corinthians 5:21
For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

he didnt commit sin, but he took the sin of the world upon him

Praxeas · #4 05-29-2011, 01:16 PM

Or if Jesus did not assume a human nature that was fallen,what did he over come?

SRM · #5 05-29-2011, 01:47 PM

I do not think Jesus had a fallen nature even though He is called the 2nd Adam.What we are overlooking here is several things.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Generally it is man's seed that mixes with the woman to produce offspring
But this says HER seed which is exactly what happened in the womb of Mary

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

THEREFORE Mary [for this reason the child that is conceived,made,created in your womb}Mary, shall be [not already is or pre existent]called the Son of God..

Adam is from God..He chose to sin
Jesus is from God..He chose not too

Jesus was the son God always wanted in Adam..

mizpeh · #6 05-29-2011, 02:32 PM

Since I don't believe in the doctrine of original sin, I don't have a problem believing that Jesus had sinful flesh just like we do as Paul described in Romans 7 yet Christ truly overcame the flesh and did not sin.

SRM · #7 05-29-2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Since I don't believe in the doctrine of original sin, I don't have a problem believing that Jesus had sinful flesh just like we do as Paul described in Romans 7 yet Christ truly overcame the flesh and did not sin.

Wow and people get upset over me..LOL..If there was no original sin why do you suppose Jesus came for ?

acerrak · #8 05-29-2011, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRM

Wow and people get upset over me..LOL..If there was no original sin why do you suppose Jesus came for ?

well i dont agree that people are born into sin, or that they inherited sins from there fathers.

i think it comes down to a sinful nature. when one denies the will of God in order to fullfill there own lust, would be more to me what the original sin was.

and we all have that attibute the thing is we all act on it for our own purpose, yet jesus who was Just like us, always stressed he came to do his fathers will over his own. I mean how could adams sons and daughters be held accountable for the actions of there father. the sin of adam and eve was against adam and eve.

However the self centered nature and the desire that adam and eve had when they flat out disobeyed God carried over to there children who would inturn act on that same desire as well.

I like your analogy that jesus is the Son that God wanted adam to be.